Question re Penthema darlisa

[MrGee]

In the last few days I have two sightings of Penthema darlisa:





The first looks like ssp. mimetica, which is the expected ssp. here, but the second looks like ssp. melema.

Please can someone explain?

[Psyche]

According to some authors they should be two separate species, more so if they occur sympatrically without intermediates.
http://www.dnp.go.th/foremic/entomol...b/penthema.htm

BTW there is a writeup on the Suada albolineata.
http://www.malaeng.com/blog/

TL Seow

[MrGee]

Thanks Seow!

So, do you think I should add both species to my list? A previous study of butterflies in the South Cardamoms [Woodfield & Murton,2006] (sorry, I cannot find this online) lists both P. darlisa and P. binghami mimetica but Yutaka's site references both specimens under P. darlia mimetica. The common names are also confusing. P. darlia mimetica is called the Blue Kaiser but P. binghami mimetica is called the Black Kaiser. My first shot clearly shows blue.

I followed the Suada albolineata link. I couldn't quite work out what it was saying (possible a translation issue). Is it in or out of the 2nd Edition? Is its common name, which I have never been able to find before, the Streaky Grass Bob?

[Psyche]

This can get a bit sticky.

Pisuth had follow Yutaka in regarding mimetica as a ssp. of P. darlisa.
He has called it the Black Kaiser.

From the website I deduced Yutaka have considered the taxon binghami as a ssp. of P. darlisa.
Here is P. binghami from Lepidoptera Indica by Federic Moore.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...hami_335_1.jpg

You can leave it as 2 sympatrically occuring subspecies until they sort this out.

TL Seow

[Painted Jezebel]

According to some authors they should be two separate species, more so if they occur sympatrically without intermediates.
http://www.dnp.go.th/foremic/entomol...b/penthema.htm

Thank you, Seow. This is precisely what I had been thinking since Gee showed me these two photos a couple of days ago.

I saw the second photo first, and I said that it looked typically P. darlisa melema, the other, first photo here, was a typical P .d. mimetica (Synonym P. binghami) . I have a gut feeling that these are two separate species.

I still wonder about the third ssp. found in Thailand, P .d. merguia(Synonym P .d .cooperi), I am sure it should be a separate species as well.

[Psyche]

As for Suada albolineata what Pisuth said was it will be mentioned but not included in the list for the 2nd edition, because of some uncertainties.

He mentioned the pic taken resembles the males of S. swerga as supplied by Kimura, but there are no pic of female to compare the female underside of S. swerga as shown in C&P4 (pl54/46).

Two flaws in the statement here.
The undersides of both sexes of S. swerga are similar.(C&P4)
In the Thai pic shown the abdominal tip is clearly that of a female.

TL Seow
PS Here are pics of Indian S. swerga..
The male does look more streaky.
http://ifoundbutterflies.org/3-lepidoptera/suada-swerga

This raise the question as to whether S. albolineata is best treated as a subspecies of S. swerga.

[Painted Jezebel]

I followed the Suada albolineata link. I couldn't quite work out what it was saying (possible a translation issue). Is it in or out of the 2nd Edition? Is its common name, which I have never been able to find before, the Streaky Grass Bob?

It was me who pointed out the identification of the photo of this species on the Thai forum too late for it to be included in the second edition, so, no, it will not be in there. I hope I have not messed things up!!!!

Where the 'English' name came from, I have no idea.

[Painted Jezebel]

This raise the question as to whether S. albolineata is best treated as a subspecies of S. swerga.

A very good and valid, question, it is a matter of sympatry, again! This is, again, something that has crossed my mind.

[Psyche]

Thank you, Seow. This is precisely what I had been thinking since Gee showed me these two photos a couple of days ago.

I saw the second photo first, and I said that it looked typically P. darlisa melema, the other, first photo here, was a typical P .d. mimetica (Synonym P. binghami) . I have a gut feeling that these are two separate species.

I still wonder about the third ssp. found in Thailand, P .d. merguia(Synonym P .d .cooperi), I am sure it should be a separate species as well.

They do look like good species to me, but I guess the male genitalia is identical in all three taxa.

This brings me to a burning question. How sure are they the forms of Papilio paradoxa (should be paradoxus -male gender) are not two different species.
After all, the males of Appias nero, paulina & albina have identical male genintalia but nobody in his right mind would consider them the same species.

TL Seow

[Painted Jezebel]

They do look like good species to me, but I guess the male genitalia is identical in all three taxa.

This brings me to a burning question. How sure are they the forms of Papilio paradoxa (should be paradoxus -male gender) are not two different species.
After all, the males of Appias nero, paulina & albina have identical male genintalia but nobody in his right mind would consider them the same species.

TL Seow

I suppose we have to wait for DNA analysis to be completed. However, do we know for sure that DNA is the be all and end all for species identification?