Butterfly ID request (Singapore)

[Psyche]

I don't think this is correct? The Comstock system includes vein 6 as part of the medial veins, separate from the radial vein: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...a/figures?lo=1 (fig. 6-1)(vein 6 is vein M1 in Comstock notation). Thus vein 6 cannot be an extension of the radius. The radial vein is the entire length of vein 7, including the upper length of the cell. The key would make a lot more sense if interpreted in this way. If interpreted in the way that you described, the origin of vein 7 would not have any discernible difference in each species

What i believe they actually mean in the key, is that in damona vein 6 is confluent with the upper vein forming the cell (joint to it as a seamless wire), and this single branch originates from the middle of vein 7. But in the other spp. vein 6 does not meet the upper vein of the cell, instead branching off from near the cell apex, so they are two separate units.

The confusion arises because they fail to mention this confluence, which to me is very important as it aids visually in understanding what is actually happening in the venation at that crucial area

So i strongly believe this is what they actually meant, because then
1. the key would make sense,
2. this would agree with Comstock notation, and
3. this would explain the differences in venation seen in all the images (that would also mean that many images of each species are potentially not correct- for example the second and third links under dieneces that you gave clearly show this minute difference in that area)

Cheers! Thoughts and corrections always welcome!

Why in the world are you talking about Comstock Notation.
C&P4 does not use Comstock to the decribe buttrfly venation.
It it6 does it would not be describing in Numerical terms.
See.
https://butterflycircle.blogspot.com...my-part-2.html


There are two errors in the line from the key.

Vein 6 is suppose to mean vein 7.
The line under R. damona is meant for R. dieneces.
The line under R. dieneces is meant for R. damona.


On page 326 is fig 124, an image of the venation of R. iarbus.
Vein 7 arise from the apex (highest point) of the HW cell.


What Eliot meant is only R. dieneces have vein 7 arising from the middle of the radius, the upper arm of the HW cell.

All other species (including R. damona) have the venation shown in R. iarbus.



TL Seow: Cheers.

[atronox]

Because it mentions the word "radius"?? If that doesn't scream Comstock notation to you idk what does

C&P4 is not consistent in their terminology. The same line contains descriptions referring to numerical notation ("vein 6") and Comstock notation ("radius")

[atronox]

The apex of the hindwing cell is the top right most area (or top left depending on which wing). So vein 7 does not arise from there as it has its origin near the base of the wing- the whole thing is a single vein. That's why vein 6 and vein 7 are medial and radial- they are different

Also is there any mention of the key being wrong? Is there an errata list that i'm missing?

[Psyche]

Because it mentions the word "radius"?? If that doesn't scream Comstock notation to you idk what does

C&P4 is not consistent in their terminology. The same line contains descriptions referring to numerical notation ("vein 6") and Comstock notation ("radius")

I have been repeating the word over & over again.


The buterfly cell FW or HW have two arms.


The upper arm is called the radius.
The lower arm is is called cubitus.

At the cellend the two arms are joined by cross veins called discocellular veins.



TL Seow: Cheers.

[atronox]

My point is that the radius is the entire length of vein 7. I'm not denying that you are wrong about what you said but you are avoiding what i am saying about vein 7 and it's length- because that is what is gonna aid in understanding the disagnostic key

The nomenclature and definition of everything other than veins 6 and 7 is of secondary concern because we are not concerned about them

[atronox]

Please refer to fig. 2-1 here
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...a/figures?lo=1

The radius is the entire length of the vein from base to termen, thus it includes the upper part of the cell

[Psyche]

Both C&P4 & Fleming use the term radius & cubitus for the the upper & lower arms of the cell(following Comstock.)


I actually have no idea of what you are talking about.

Anyway, god luck on your endeavour.


TL Seow: Cheers.

[atronox]

I actually have no idea of what you are talking about.

Yes i think that's plainly obvious. Thanks for the well-wishes

[Commander]

Let's take a time-out here. In the spirit of a good scientific discourse, there are always different points of views and disagreements.

I've managed to secure a male voucher specimen of the various individuals found at USR, and the characteristics which states "male upperside hindwing bases of spaces 5 and 6 red." are confirmed. This is indeed Rapala damon individuals. We shot both the males and females.

[atronox]

Let's take a time-out here. In the spirit of a good scientific discourse, there are always different points of views and disagreements.

I've managed to secure a male voucher specimen of the various individuals found at USR, and the characteristics which states "male upperside hindwing bases of spaces 5 and 6 red." are confirmed. This is indeed Rapala damon individuals. We shot both the males and females.

Thanks, Mr Khew. That is good to hear