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Thread: Hesperiidae ID Request - Singapore

  1. #21
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    Ohhh I see, thank you Dr Seow!

  2. #22
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    Dear Dr Seow,

    Requesting ID and clarification regarding Potanthus omaha vs Potanthus mingo. If I'm not wrong, P.omaha's abdominal end is usually yellow with a basal black line sometimes for males and dark shading dorsally sometimes for females while in P.mingo, the abdominal end is distinctly dark shaded. Other than that, both species have similar features such as FW spots 4 and 5 having varying levels of overlap with other spots and a generally small size to me. I also understand that in P.omaha there can be individuals with very dark shading which makes it more confusing for me because I'm not sure if the shading will apply to the abdominal end.

    1. Potanthus omaha? Abdominal end shaded basally and maybe dorsally?
    IMG_20230726_163953.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/173420563

    2. Potanthus omaha due to abdominal end features and darkened veins.
    IMG_20230726_164436.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/173787434 (more angles on iNat)

    3. I'm not too sure with this one due to the shaded abdominal end. Could it be P.mingo?
    IMG_20230726_164317.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/173225129

    4. Potanthus mingo? This one stood out the most to me due to the shading and also that it's the smallest Potanthus I've ever shot.
    IMG_20230726_164556.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175002832 (more shots)

    5. Not related to the question but just wanted to confirm if this is P.omaha, not used to seeing pristine ones!
    IMG_20230726_164012.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/170110581

    Thank you so much in advance!

    Cheers,
    Lumin Ong

  3. #23
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    Post 22.
    The difficulty is identifying the female which all have varying degree of dark shading on the abdominal end.
    Note P. omaha is the only species which is stated to have dark-dusted veins especially on both sides of the HW.

    1. P. omaha male .Abdominal end is yellow.

    2. P. omaha male. similar to 1.

    3 Probably P. mingo female.
    Note abdominal end is broadly shaded black.
    FW veins not so distinct; vein dividing spot 4 & 5 hardly dark-dusted.

    4. P. omaha female.
    Abdominal end more evenly dark-shaded but not as black as 3.

    5. P. omaha male. Lightly marked but all veins equal.


    P. omaha;
    Abdominal end yellow in male, dark-shaded in female.
    Veins distinctly dark on HW both sides.
    Upperside FW veins strongly black.
    Male
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/156235472
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/84928457
    Female.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/147267181
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/162137058


    P.ganda
    Abdominal end yellow ; Veins not dark-dusted FW & HW both sides .
    The typical forms are obvious but there seem many intermediates, ie crosses with P. omaha.
    Upperside HW band veins not visible.
    Female abdominal end only lightly dark.
    Males.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/131869696
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/78956324

    Females. Note abdominal end less dark than others.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/104345770
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ht4NZzQND..._underside.jpg
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/145665523
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175686730


    P. mingo
    Abdominal end black-banded in the male; strongly blackish in the female.
    HW veins over band not dark-dusted on both sides.
    Males.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/151463827
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/99475050
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/19332629
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EGfuIVmIA...nthus%2Bsp.JPG
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f3wB2A2uj...0/_MG_1531.jpg
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lQGrUAdKo...0/_MG_1529.jpg
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/166586148

    Probable females.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/115727903
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/26435967


    TL Seow:Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 01-Aug-2023 at 12:04 AM.

  4. #24
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    Thank you Dr Seow! Hope to find more Potanthus soon!

  5. #25
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    Dear Dr Seow,

    Requesting some ID clarifications for some of JX and I's past and current shots!

    1. Potanthus omaha typical male because the abdominal-end's black band isn't that extensive compared to typical P.mingo? Veins also dark-dusted.
    IMG_20230731_193236.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175914065

    2. Potanthus omaha female? Not too sure about this one, would P.omaha have way darker HW upper-side veins than this?
    IMG_20230731_192928.jpgIMG_20230731_192900.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175913800

    3. Potanthus sp. is this a possible P.mingo? Old shot.
    IMG_20230731_193533.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175914378

    4. Potanthus ganda? The veins look very faint in comparison to the rest of the wings' dark shading so I'm not too sure.
    IMG_20230731_193750.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175914438

    5. Pelopidas agna? Uniform brown.
    IMG_20230731_193623.jpgIMG_20230731_193554.jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175914100

    Thank you so much in advance!

    Cheers,
    Lumin Ong

  6. #26
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    Sorry! Forgot two more.

    6. Caltoris cormasa? Not too sure.
    IMG20221224093415 (1).jpg
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/145045919

    7.Pelopidas agna?
    iNaturalist: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/168507919

    Thank you so much in advance!

    Cheers,
    Lumin Ong

  7. #27
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    Post 25.

    1. Potanthus omaha male.
    All veins are uniformly dark.
    Some male do have a slightly thicker black band than others.

    2. Potanthus omaha female.
    This is intriguing because it has a lage HW spot 6.
    Underside all veins evenly dark .UpF veins dark UpH veins weak but all veins visible (except vein 5 which is weak in all specis).
    The specis is very variable.
    Compare typical form.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/162137058

    3.Potanthus serina female.
    Abdominal end black banded; FW spot 5 smaller.
    The female is less obvious in the disparity of FW spots 4 & 5..
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...ale_Horace.jpg

    4. Potanthus ganda female.
    The veins are not dark-dusted. They just appear as grey lines.
    In both sexes the FW veins are also not blacken.
    Females.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/104345770
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/175686730

    Female P. confucius (Taiwan ssp.) for comparison
    All veins not dark-dusted (or barely) .HW with large spot 6.
    (I have not seen any P. ganda with a large HW spot 6.)
    https://www.tbn.org.tw/sites/ozop/fi...?itok=A8G19P1n
    https://pictureinsect.com/image-hand...ge/format,webp
    http://dearlep.tw/images/Papilionoid...20DSC_0068.jpg
    Below is also a female Note FW black hole.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/77600294@N07/11186750196
    Male.
    https://www.tbn.org.tw/sites/ozop/fi...?itok=-myXQEX0
    Last edited by Psyche; 01-Aug-2023 at 12:45 AM.

  8. #28
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    Post 25.
    5 . Probably correct as Pelpidas agna female.
    Note a line thru the 2 FW cellspot spot bypass the spot in space 1b ( appearing as a grey streak ,left FW.)
    From the underside alone I would think it is P. mathias.


    Pelopidas mathias.
    Ground colour tinged grey, often strongly, giving it a dirty look.

    Male upperside FW spots 2 & 3 more quadrate.
    A line drawn through the two FW cellspots cuts the male brand.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/budak/51631121777
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/169308060
    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vqr7KmROf...perside_01.jpg
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/163651691

    Female ;A line through the two FW cellspots cut the spot in space 1b or at least moves nearer it.
    Below pic. The grey here appears as whitish shadung.
    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7JuPSD_pj...derside_02.jpg
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYsLtkDVM...perside_02.jpg
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f8ydI8r9_...perside_01.jpg


    Pelopidas agna.
    Underside ground colour not grey-tinged, giving a cleaner uniform look.

    Male with FW spots 2 & 3 rather narrow.
    A line through the two cellspot bypass the brand or just tip it.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/si...2cdad160-1.jpg
    https://singapore.biodiversity.onlin...doptera-000037
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/---kNw2cMz...A_male_05a.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/si...bee5e238-3.jpg
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/164349529

    Female
    A line through the two FW cellspots moves away from the spot in space 1b.
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xZ8zLdRnY..._female_02.jpg
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7zXwSQZiZ...SwiftF-KSK.jpg
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ygTUZGa_y..._female_01.jpg
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gancw1/22195353146


    In fieldshots perspective distortion makes difficult to judge the alignment of the drawn line.
    Features are not absolute.



    Post 26.

    6. Caltoris cormasa smale.
    This is fairly typical, strong red tone, three subapicalspot ,spots pale yellowish, upper FW cellspot small.


    7. Pelopidas agna male.
    No noticeable grey tinge.
    Similar appearance to 5.




    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 01-Aug-2023 at 10:34 PM.

  9. #29
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    Thank you Dr Seow! May I also ask in P.ganda and P.omaha intermediates that almost look alike, would P.ganda have lightly dark-dusted veins similar to a light shaded P.omaha? Are there any specific veins I should look out for if that's the case or is an upper-side shot the only way to tell these intermediates apart? Thank you!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by loomins_zoomins View Post
    Thank you Dr Seow! May I also ask in P.ganda and P.omaha intermediates that almost look alike, would P.ganda have lightly dark-dusted veins similar to a light shaded P.omaha? Are there any specific veins I should look out for if that's the case or is an upper-side shot the only way to tell these intermediates apart? Thank you!

    I am afraid it is not possible.
    Despite what many people think crosses between allied species are not rare & often they are fully interfertile.
    This happens even among higher order animals such as mammals.
    For examples the Sumatran & Bornean orang-utan are fully interfertile although given full species status.
    A third the Tampanuli Orang have also been raised to full species.

    If a male ganda crosses with a female omaha the veins may be half dark but if the hybrid integrate back into its colony eg ganda the vein darkening clears again.

    All I can say is look at all the veins to see if they are equally dark.
    In the past I have also made many mis IDs.
    Eg.1. Veins are faint. Probably a hybrid.
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8xXyOhBOa...Dart-KohCH.jpg
    Compare a normal P. omaha female.
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DaXbrMj8O...s%2BSarina.jpg

    Eg 2. I thought this too orangey. Best left as P. omaha.
    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L3ew9ztkI...thus-ganda.jpg


    The web is full of misIDs which make trying to get a valid image to compare very difficult.

    "P. ganda ' in P. Malaysia.
    Abdominalend almost wholly black.. P. lydia.
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TX9TTZNzH...0/DSC_0448.JPG

    This one is so orange in colour but the appearance looks typical omaha.
    https://inaturalist.ala.org.au/obser...ity_assessment

    This one is interesting.
    FW spot 8 is reduced; spot 5 is smaller than spot 4.Abdominal end lightly shaded.
    This suggest it is P. juno.
    Not all P.juno have FW spot 8 absent; if just reduced, it is larger on the underside FW.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/budak/52368208013/

    Compare P. juno female with spot 8 absent.
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WroJpPq0U...Dart-KohCH.jpg
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/hes/92750001.html
    Addendum.
    In P. serina , apart from the abdominal end black band, the side of the antennal shaft is black. In a side view the front antenna appears almost all black.
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...0361/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...1/original.jpg
    In P. juno the antennal shaft is chequered all round.
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama.../original.jpeg

    TL Seow: Cheers.
    PS. Two more intermediates with incomplete dark dusting of the veins but best left as P. omaha.
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/19590919
    https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/19527372

    PS2. Most intermediates are best left as variants of P. omaha.
    Last edited by Psyche; 02-Aug-2023 at 10:24 PM.

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