Hi Dr Seow,
I shot these two Rapala sp. and am confused between dieneces and suffusa. Thank you!
1.
Attachment 27681
2.
Attachment 27682
Attachment 27683
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Hi Dr Seow,
I shot these two Rapala sp. and am confused between dieneces and suffusa. Thank you!
1.
Attachment 27681
2.
Attachment 27682
Attachment 27683
Both are Rapala damona males.
The extent of the red area on the HW basal half is totally blocked by the left FW.
The black veins which is only prominent in the marginal zone is common to all three species R. dieneces, damona & cowani.
Four species in the dieneces group occur in Singapore.
Underside HW postdiscal band in space 1b is an arch, dome or a loop.
They may be grouped into two.
A. FW postdiscal band curved or bends towards the costa.
A1. Rapala suffusa.
Upperside male red patch suffused brown with the margins diffuse.
Male underside pale brownish to yellow.Female yellow.
HW orange crown absent, being yellow & blend into the ground colour; no diffusion of orange or yellow into adjacent areas ie space 3 & 4.
Males.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4183/3...2df61430_c.jpg
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...h_Jonathan.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7376/9...452d3eda_b.jpg
Females.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...Sunny-Chir.jpg
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...lash_Ellen.jpg
http://a4.pbase.com/g9/25/686825/2/1...5.sRe8z1wO.jpg
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/83970001.html
India.
https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/si...069031-1_0.jpg
A2 .Rapala damona.
This was only discovered when an upperside shot of the HW shows the extensive red area ,where in dieneces the HW basal half is black.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/showt...apala-dieneces
Male underside ochreous brown, female ochreous, orange crown weak, diffusion of orange/yellow into space 3 & 4 as in dieneces.
Male
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4683/...dd77b589_c.jpg
Probable female.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-66Xxi-yYP...ash-SunnyC.png
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/84000001.html
B, FW postdiscal band straight, at most slight curved at the upper end.
B1. Rapala dieneces.
HW Postdiscal band orange brown
HW orange crown more distinct; diffusion of orange/yellow into adjacent areas prominent.
Male variously light brown; female pale biege brown to yellow brown.
Males.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...ash---Khew.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nq8JtCdenz...rlet+Flash.jpg
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...ult_M_5a_c.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wn8O6uNMU...0/DSC_7383.JPG
https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...571/large.jpeg
Females.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...20-%20Chng.jpg
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check..._female_01.jpg
https://wanderingbutterflyeffect.fil...19579a860b.jpg
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/84010001.html
B2.Rapala cowani
Underside distinctly grey.
Postdiscal band blackish or dark grey. orange crown a thin ring.
Now only known from Pulau Ubin.
Male.
.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...et_1939_PT.jpg
Pulau Ubin.
https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...468/large.jpeg
https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...517/large.jpeg
TL Seow: Cheers.
Thank you Dr Seow! It was quite a gloomy day so getting the uppersides was very unlikely, that partial shot was when it was spooked by the flash.
It is great you got these clear beautiful shots.
Rapala damona may not be as rare as thought.
In the past they were thought to be R. suffusa variants.
This one below is probably R. damona. Correction ;R. suffusa.
https://alanowyong.files.wordpress.c...-001.jpg?w=604
TL Seow: Cheers.
Hi Dr Seow,
I was comparing the undersides for the 3 Rapala sp. and I noticed damona seems to have a larger 'blue' tonal spot that reaches (or very close to) the hind wing post-discal line, while the other two the same 'blue' spot is about half the size and does not reach the line. Would this be a reliable feature to distinguish between damona and the other two? Would like to hear your opinions, thank you!
You have a point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LJK1410
I used to quote this blue grey speckled patch, but get confused by conflicting images on the web.
However, in Singapore it seem quite consistent .
In other region it is not so large but still somewhat larger than in suffusa.
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/84000001.html
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/83970001.html
Here is the valid female Rapala damona.
https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...9554/large.jpg
This which I thought might be damona is R. suffusa. The two tone browner FW & yellower HW is seen in some R. suffusa males. See Yutaka website.
https://alanowyong.files.wordpress.c...-001.jpg?w=604
There are others which looks intermediates.
TL Seow: Cheers.
A large speckled patch filling space 1b in the HW marginal zone is a consistent feature in R. damona.
This is seen in Borneo ie. Otsuka's Borneo Lycaenids & in the Andaman here.
https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/rapala-damona
The feature is not absolute. In some it is smaller but still filling 60-70 % of the area.
In R. suffusa the speckled patch rarely fill more than half the areain space 1b.
TL Seow: Cheers.
Hi, Dr. Seow,
The key in C&P4 also mentions the origin of hindwing vein 6 as diagnostic for damona (according to them it arises near the middle of the radial vein, but in dieneces, it originates near the apex of the cell). They don't mention anything about this vein concerning suffusa but based on my scrutiny of various photos of suffusa, it appears that it also doesn't share this peculiarity with damona
Turning now to Jian Kai's shots, it appears that one of them (with partial dorsal) appears to have vein 6 arising from the middle of the radial vein and would thus conform with damona, but the other does not have this feature
So i'm wondering if there are actually two species here- with the first being suffusa and the second ,damona. This would also explain the apparent difference in ground colour between them.
Eager to hear your thoughts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by atronox
I was confused by those lines long ago & have never given them much thoughts.
Now that you brought it up I realised it need to be scrutinised.
First about the venation.
Typically in the HW, veins 4 & 6 forms the end of the cell. vein 5 arise from the discocellular or cross veins .
Only vein 7 arise from the radius or upper arm of the cell.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rghIZWAF0...einspaces1.jpg
The line in the key or C&P 4/5 refers to vein 7, as it is the only vein arising from the radius. Vein 6 is essentially an extension of the radius.
This line seem to have been misplaced & misapplied.
In R. damona vein 7 arise close to vein 6, from the apex (highest point) of the cell.
This can be seen in these valid examples of R. damona
https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/si...b5225641-2.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4683/...dd77b589_c.jpg
It is in R. dieneces that vein 7 arise from the middle (or near it) of the radius (upper arm) of the HW cell.
This can be seen in the examples.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...ash---Khew.jpg
https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...571/large.jpeg
https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...959/large.jpeg
https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...5691/large.jpg
TL Seow: Cheers.
PS. The venation of R. suffusa have HW vein 7 at the highest point (apex) & close to vein 6 much as in R. damona.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4183/3...2df61430_c.jpg
https://a4.pbase.com/g9/25/686825/2/...5.sRe8z1wO.jpg
http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...lash_Ellen.jpg
I don't think this is correct? The Comstock system includes vein 6 as part of the medial veins, separate from the radial vein: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...a/figures?lo=1 (fig. 6-1)(vein 6 is vein M1 in Comstock notation). Thus vein 6 cannot be an extension of the radius. The radial vein is the entire length of vein 7, including the upper length of the cell. The key would make a lot more sense if interpreted in this way. If interpreted in the way that you described, the origin of vein 7 would not have any discernible difference in each speciesQuote:
Originally Posted by Psyche
What i believe they actually mean in the key, is that in damona vein 6 is confluent with the upper vein forming the cell (joint to it as a seamless wire), and this single branch originates from the middle of vein 7. But in the other spp. vein 6 does not meet the upper vein of the cell, instead branching off from near the cell apex, so they are two separate units.
The confusion arises because they fail to mention this confluence, which to me is very important as it aids visually in understanding what is actually happening in the venation at that crucial area
So i strongly believe this is what they actually meant, because then
1. the key would make sense,
2. this would agree with Comstock notation, and
3. this would explain the differences in venation seen in all the images (that would also mean that many images of each species are potentially not correct- for example the second and third links under dieneces that you gave clearly show this minute difference in that area)
Cheers! Thoughts and corrections always welcome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by atronox
Why in the world are you talking about Comstock Notation.
C&P4 does not use Comstock to the decribe buttrfly venation.
It it6 does it would not be describing in Numerical terms.
See.
https://butterflycircle.blogspot.com...my-part-2.html
There are two errors in the line from the key.
Vein 6 is suppose to mean vein 7.
The line under R. damona is meant for R. dieneces.
The line under R. dieneces is meant for R. damona.
On page 326 is fig 124, an image of the venation of R. iarbus.
Vein 7 arise from the apex (highest point) of the HW cell.
What Eliot meant is only R. dieneces have vein 7 arising from the middle of the radius, the upper arm of the HW cell.
All other species (including R. damona) have the venation shown in R. iarbus.
TL Seow: Cheers.
Because it mentions the word "radius"?? If that doesn't scream Comstock notation to you idk what does
C&P4 is not consistent in their terminology. The same line contains descriptions referring to numerical notation ("vein 6") and Comstock notation ("radius")
The apex of the hindwing cell is the top right most area (or top left depending on which wing). So vein 7 does not arise from there as it has its origin near the base of the wing- the whole thing is a single vein. That's why vein 6 and vein 7 are medial and radial- they are different
Also is there any mention of the key being wrong? Is there an errata list that i'm missing?
I have been repeating the word over & over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by atronox
The buterfly cell FW or HW have two arms.
The upper arm is called the radius.
The lower arm is is called cubitus.
At the cellend the two arms are joined by cross veins called discocellular veins.
TL Seow: Cheers.
My point is that the radius is the entire length of vein 7. I'm not denying that you are wrong about what you said but you are avoiding what i am saying about vein 7 and it's length- because that is what is gonna aid in understanding the disagnostic key
The nomenclature and definition of everything other than veins 6 and 7 is of secondary concern because we are not concerned about them
Please refer to fig. 2-1 here
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...a/figures?lo=1
The radius is the entire length of the vein from base to termen, thus it includes the upper part of the cell
Both C&P4 & Fleming use the term radius & cubitus for the the upper & lower arms of the cell(following Comstock.)
I actually have no idea of what you are talking about.
Anyway, god luck on your endeavour.
TL Seow: Cheers.
Yes i think that's plainly obvious. Thanks for the well-wishesQuote:
Originally Posted by Psyche
Let's take a time-out here. In the spirit of a good scientific discourse, there are always different points of views and disagreements.
I've managed to secure a male voucher specimen of the various individuals found at USR, and the characteristics which states "male upperside hindwing bases of spaces 5 and 6 red." are confirmed. This is indeed Rapala damon individuals. We shot both the males and females.
Thanks, Mr Khew. That is good to hearQuote:
Originally Posted by Commander
Also Dr Seow i'd like to apologise for sounding rude; i probably misconstrued your tone as being condescending when i was asking a genuine question to clarify matters, which is why i reacted.
I realised after looking at this key and discussing the matter with others, that because of the poor wording, it is actually not easy to understand what they mean by how the vein originates and in practice it is also not easy to see where the vein originates. And that's just one way of interpreting it
I think it's best to just rely on the dorsal characters, which are always trustworthy. The key probably needs to be reworded in a manner that is unambiguous, so that these diagnostic characters will also be useful on the ventral side
I'm gonna leave this for now