"No spot" one-spot Grass Yellow!

We seem to have a "no spot" One-spot Grass Yellow here. Les has identified these as Eurema andersoni sadanobui, which should have a single forewing cell spot. However, all four specimens shown appear to have no cell spot. I am not disputing Les's ID, just posting because it might be of interest to some. Incidentally, we also have the normal "one spot" One-spot Grass Yellow here.

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/...07_23_9795.jpg

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/..._07_000782.jpg

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/..._06_000737.jpg

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Originally Posted by MrGee

I am not disputing Les's ID[/IMG]

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Oh Yes carry on, please dispute!!

As I told you, I am having total trouble with this.

I can not understand a no spot, other than D. brigitta, from Cambodia, which this so obviously is not!

Have you got a new species here?
The male is pale greenish yellow & have a very broad black border on the hindwing.
The excavation of the black border is deeper in space 2 than in the upper space 3 so that the margin is slanted towards the tornus. (not the border margin in space 1a ending on the dorsum.)
In E. andersoni the inner margin of the black border in space 2 & 3 is upright.

TL Seow:cheers:
PS. It is the other way round. The smaller paler one is the female, but the lack of cell-spot and the inclination of the black border at space 2 & 3 say this is not E. andersonii.

@Seow: I really hope so!

However, the way you have described it seems almost the same as the description of Eurema lacteola in the BC guide to Eurema identification. Except, of course, that also has one cell spot. I cannot find anything reliable on Eurema lacteola. The wikipedia page shows a butterfly with three cell spots, which, I presume must be Eurema blanda. Yutaka's site does not list Eurema lacteola.

I considered E. lacteola, but it is only known from the Peninsular,( as far as I am aware). As you say, Yutaka does not even list the species as being from Indo-China.

There is, however, one further species to consider, Eurema novapallida. However, the male appears too bright, but it is found in your approximate area.

Based on the shots on Yutaka's site, I don't think it can be Eurema novapallida because that has no hindwing black border and the forewing black border seems too narrow.

The way the border in space 2 is more deeply excavated than in space 3 is the difference between E. lacteola & E. andersonii in the Eurema key of C&P4.

I have checked all valid examples of E. andersonii and it is very consistent in the excavation in space 2 being less or equal to that in space 3.

I was confused as I thought initially the paler small one was the male, but the female is always paler & likely to have the broad border on the hindwing.
This looks like E. lacteola without a cell-spot.
However, there is also the colour consideration. The male is supposed to be greenish-yellow and the female greenish-white.

TL Seow:cheers:

After taking another look at E. novapallida, it is also high on the list. The northern ssp. phukiwoana is very dark.
Those in Cambodia could be intermediate, but again there is a cell-spot.

Interestingly, from the records, E. novapallida was previously thought to be ssp. of E. lacteola.

TL Seow:cheers:

I do not have access to many sources of reliable images but Yutaka's site shows Eurema novapallida novapallida as the subspecies for this area and the shots shown have no black hindwing border, even on the females. Plus it has a distinct forewing cell spot.

I have just looked at Eurema novapallida phukiwoana on Yutaka's site and find it hard to believe it is the same species as Eurema novapallida novapallida.

A pity Yutaka shows only the female of ssp. phukiwoana.

From the see-thru broad borders on both wings of the 2 females in your pics. it matches quite well except the margins are more regular.

I am inclined to believe you have this species, but I can't explain the absence of a cell spot, unless there is a localised aberration in an isolated colony.

TL Seow:cheers:

I am confused. Spp. phukiwoana is supposedly not the one in this area and spp. novapallida, which is, looks completely different. Also, to my eye, the borders of spp. phukiwoana are quite different from my shots. I wish I had an upperside shot!

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Originally Posted by MrGee

I am confused. Spp. phukiwoana is supposedly not the one in this area and spp. novapallida, which is, looks completely different. Also, to my eye, the borders of spp. phukiwoana are quite different from my shots. I wish I had an upperside shot!

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I meant your shots are closer to ssp. phukiwoana. In Yutaka's examples the border margins are exaggerated & distorted. Straightened them out & they will be very similar.
The border margin in ssp. novapallida is very regular & typical. There will be intermediates between these two.

Of more concern is the cell spot as all examples of E. novapallida also shows a distinct cell spot. It is not one of those faint vague thing like in E. blanda which might be obsolete sometimes.

If you happens to shoot E. novapallida novapallida in the same area, then chances are this is something new.

TL Seow:cheers:

I don't know if this helps or hinders but I have a couple of new shots, which could be the same species. I believe their is no forewing cell spot but it is hard to tell with so many "freckles". The first shot shows a clear subapical spot, which I have not seen on the other "no spot" butts. I took this at night and the second shot was taken with a torch shining from the other side to show the upperside black borders.

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/..._18_001029.jpg

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/..._18_001030.jpg

The yellows are a headache with their spots ...... we had a similar headache sometime back...

For your reference:

http://www.butterflycircle.com/forum...t=grass+yellow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGee

I don't know if this helps or hinders but I have a couple of new shots, which could be the same species. I believe their is no forewing cell spot but it is hard to tell with so many "freckles". The first shot shows a clear subapical spot, which I have not seen on the other "no spot" butts. I took this at night and the second shot was taken with a torch shining from the other side to show the upperside black borders.

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It does help. There is clearly no cell spot.

Thanks, Sunny for bringing that thread. I did remember it & wanted to go thru it.

The excavations & inclinations of the black borders are the same for hecabe & lacteola .(also for novapallida although the border is thin.)

One feature of E. hecabe is its squarish hindwing contour especially in the male.
You can see from this website one female have only one cellspot and the other brownish one almost none.
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/pie/20560001.html

Judging from the hindwing contour of the males (the yellower ones) all are probably variants of E. hecabe.

TL Seow:cheers:

Sadly, I think you are right and I was coming to that conclusion after looking at Sunny's posted link (thanks for that). I was all excited there, for a couple of days and now just a common grass yellow! Still, I want my list to be as accurate as possible, not just as long as possible, but long and accurate would be nice!

Sorry for the dumb question but could somebody please explain aberrations to me (if not too much trouble). I had assumed they were rare anomalies but I have seen several of these "no spot" E. hecabe specimens space over several months.

Also, maybe the identification guidelines need to be modified a bit. The first breakdown is currently based on cell spots but, if they are variable, it makes things a little tricky. Would it be possible to be more vague where variation occurs. For example, it now seems that E. hecabe can have two, one or no cell spots, but probably never three. The trouble is I don't know if anybody actually knows which species display this variability and which do not, leaving it almost impossible to make identifications from photos alone (as stated in the earlier post).

The variability of some of these fellas will cause quite a bit of confusion. But unless someone does a rigourous research by breeding large numbers and examining them, it will be quite difficult to sort out these "no-spot" grass yellows.

Here are three more to add to your collection of no-spots that I'd classified as E. hecabe aberrants... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGee

Sadly, I think you are right and I was coming to that conclusion after looking at Sunny's posted link (thanks for that). I was all excited there, for a couple of days and now just a common grass yellow! Still, I want my list to be as accurate as possible, not just as long as possible, but long and accurate would be nice!

Sorry for the dumb question but could somebody please explain aberrations to me (if not too much trouble). I had assumed they were rare anomalies but I have seen several of these "no spot" E. hecabe specimens space over several months.

Also, maybe the identification guidelines need to be modified a bit. The first breakdown is currently based on cell spots but, if they are variable, it makes things a little tricky. Would it be possible to be more vague where variation occurs. For example, it now seems that E. hecabe can have two, one or no cell spots, but probably never three. The trouble is I don't know if anybody actually knows which species display this variability and which do not, leaving it almost impossible to make identifications from photos alone (as stated in the earlier post).

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You are right in aberration being a rare anomaly, but the term can be subjective.
Aberration implied that the said example differs markedly from the norm & is RARE.
Every species have a clinal variation from one extreme to the other.
If we only see the 2 extremes & the one in the middle, we might conclude one extreme (& all other forms that differ slightly) as the typical, and the middle & other extreme as aberrations.
Thats it until we have collected enough examples to show a continuous or graded variation from one to the other.
Usually aberration refers to very unusual forms eg a patch of different colour, or two black bands across the cell, etc.

Admittedly the key need to be modified.
Most of the Eurema species have distinct cell spots (dark, zigzag.) or corroborative subapical patch.
The 2 species in which the cell spots are mere dots or faint streaks which are liable to be obsolete are hecabe & blanda.
E. hecabe also do not have alternative ID marks on the underside. However, I think the hindwing contour is quite useful.

TL Seow:cheers:
PS. E. hecabe is stated to be highly variable.
See C&P4's page 32 on variations & aberrations.

PS2. Another useful ID feature is that in E. hecabe the costal mark in space 7 is usually quite out of line with the cell-end mark.
In E. andersonii it is in line (& more or less so in ada,& lacteola )

Great shots, Khew! :cheers:

Seow, sorry to be a bit dim but I am still getting to grips with all the terminology associated with butterfly identification. Is the "squarish hindwing contour" you mention costal, towards the base, as shown clearly in Khew's first shot? And is the spot misalignment as shown below?

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/...0Alignment.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGee

Great shots, Khew! :cheers:

Seow, sorry to be a bit dim but I am still getting to grips with all the terminology associated with butterfly identification. Is the "squarish hindwing contour" you mention costal, towards the base, as shown clearly in Khew's first shot? And is the spot misalignment as shown below?

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/...0Alignment.jpg

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By hindwing contour, I meant the shape of the hindwing is squarish ie the margin is more angular & not rounded as in the other species. This is clearly seen in Khew's examples.

The misalignment is on the hindwing. In andersonii the dark costal streak cuts down & is in line with the cell-end bar.
In hecabe they are usually quite out of line. Again shown in Khew's examples.

TL Seow:cheers:

OK, got it now! Thanks Seow!

I don't think there is any doubt in these images being E. hecabe.

Khew, all credit to you & Sunny fot documenting and keeping a portfolio of these anomalies all these years.
Without these we will probably always have a bit of doubt in our mind as to the correct ID.
When the 1st pics were posted I thought it unlikely that E. hecabe can be completely spotless.

Do you have records of other species losing their spots?

TL Seow:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Psyche

Do you have records of other species losing their spots?

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Not that I know of, unless the individual is really worn out. But that would probably be obvious that the scales would have caused an appearance of lost spots. The shots of pristine specimens so far, at least for me, have always been E. hecabe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psyche

Khew, all credit to you & Sunny fot documenting and keeping a portfolio of these anomalies all these years.
Without these we will probably always have a bit of doubt in our mind as to the correct ID.
When the 1st pics were posted I thought it unlikely that E. hecabe can be completely spotless.

TL Seow:cheers:

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Absolutely. I have not been contributing to this thread recently as I was completely clueless, never having seen a 'no-spot' E. hecabe before, and not even thinking there could be one.

Thanks for everyone's input.