Question re Penthema darlisa

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Originally Posted by Painted Jezebel

I suppose we have to wait for DNA analysis to be completed. However, do we know for sure that DNA is the be all and end all for species identification?

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DNA analysis is certainly a big help.
A certain percentage difference in DNA/genetic material is set for diferentiation of species in mammal.
This have results in 2 species of Orang-utans, 2 of Gorillas, 3 of giraffes, 2 of Clouded Leopards, etc.
They can be differentiated superficially but are fully inter-fertile.

In the case of lesser animals like butterflies, different limits will need to be set, and I suspect the infertility barrier will be even more porous between sibling species.

A good species for DNA analysis is Papilio clytia.
In Malaya all forms occur until the halfway mark & roughly from Selangor southwards to Singapore only form dissimilis is known.
This suggest that f-dissimilis is acting on its own ie. as a good separate species.
I don't whether anyone has done any breeding experiments to show all the forms can arise from a batch of eggs.

TL Seow:cheers:

Seow and Les, thanks for all the info, confusing as it might be!

Re Penthema darlisa: I have just realised that the forewing spots on the first shot (sorry for switching the order, Les) much more resemble those of ssp. melema than ssp. mimetica (in pattern, if not colour), even though the hindwing is clearly not ssp. melema. This is based on the few shots of spp. mimetica that I can find. Just to confuse matters further, could the first specimen be a hybrid, or are the blue spots normal on ssp. mimetica.

Re Suada sp.: Great shots of S. swerga. Thanks for the link. It's a shame there aren't similar available somewhere for S. albolineata. If there are, I cannot find them. I think for now I should leave mine as S. albolineata (with no common English name).

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Originally Posted by MrGee

Seow and Les, thanks for all the info, confusing as it might be!

Re Penthema darlisa: I have just realised that the forewing spots on the first shot (sorry for switching the order, Les) much more resemble those of ssp. melema than ssp. mimetica (in pattern, if not colour), even though the hindwing is clearly not ssp. melema. This is based on the few shots of spp. mimetica that I can find. Just to confuse matters further, could the first specimen be a hybrid, or are the blue spots normal on ssp. mimetica.

Re Suada sp.: Great shots of S. swerga. Thanks for the link. It's a shame there aren't similar available somewhere for S. albolineata. If there are, I cannot find them. I think for now I should leave mine as S. albolineata (with no common English name).

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With mimetic species, there is always a variable amount of spots. I suspect the blue spots will not show up on the topside.
Here are other forms of mimetica though, from neighbouring Laos.
http://www.neutron.phys.ethz.ch/Lepi...a/Laos2011.htm

The English name of S. albolineatus is likely a product of Pisuth' team, but I think it is good & appropriate.

TL Seeow:cheers:

Thanks for the link, Seow. Clears up the blue spot issue! Interestingly, they also show Penthema darlisa melema and Penthema darlisa/binghami mimetica co-existing.

I am still unsure whether the mimetica should be P. darlisa mimetica or P. binghami mimetica.

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Originally Posted by MrGee

Thanks for the link, Seow. Clears up the blue spot issue! Interestingly, they also show Penthema darlisa melema and Penthema darlisa/binghami mimetica co-existing.

I am still unsure whether the mimetica should be P. darlisa mimetica or P. binghami mimetica.

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This is far more complicated than I expected.
In going through Yutaka's records there are 2 forms of P. darlisa melema.
f-darlisa and f-binghami.

I think you are right about the blue spots & blue sheen upperside.

Taxon mimetica whether as P. darlisa or binghami have no blue on the forewing.

I think pic 1 is P. darlisa melema f - binghami (it resembles P. binghami.)
Pic. 2 is P. darlisa melema f - darlisa.
Here you can see a form of P. darlisa melema in which the hindwing stripes are disappearing.
http://www.malaeng.com/blog/?p=8678

TL Seow:cheers:

Thanks Seow but the link you sent in the previous post (http://www.neutron.phys.ethz.ch/Lepi...a/Laos2011.htm) shows blue on thee forewing of ssp. mimetica.

I guess there is a general misunderstanding and probably some misidentification of these species.

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Originally Posted by MrGee

Thanks Seow but the link you sent in the previous post (http://www.neutron.phys.ethz.ch/Lepi...a/Laos2011.htm) shows blue on thee forewing of ssp. mimetica.

I guess there is a general misunderstanding and probably some misidentification of these species.

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There is a fair bit of mis-ID in that site, but the pics are excellent.
Yutaka's site indicates some memitica in past records should be melema.

TL Seow:cheers:

So are you happy that the best option is to identify both as P. darlisa melema and label each with the appropriate form?

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Originally Posted by MrGee

So are you happy that the best option is to identify both as P. darlisa melema and label each with the appropriate form?

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If we follow Yutaka it should be correct.
Possibly some examples of mimetica may have some dark blue gloss but if it have the same irridescent blue as melema it could not possibly be called a Black Kaiser.
Here at the melema site you can see most records from Laos are misID'ed as mimetica.
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/40580020.html

At the mimetica site there are 2(actually 1) records from Botum Sakor NP.Cambodia.
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/40580010.html

Is your place near to this or to the Laos border?:cheers:

Images from net are rather confusing. It seems the forms quoted by Yutaka may be erected by them.

TL Seow:cheers:

Here is the entry from the Butterfly Field Guide: Southwest Cambodia [Woodfield & Murton,2006] (copyright Frontier)

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/...maFrontier.jpg

I am much nearer to Botum Sakor National Park (approx 70km) than I am to Laos (about 400km to the Laos border).