ID Check

[The Plane]

Shot these 2 records shots today. Please help to ID

Is this Mottled Emigrant ?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4649344207_0d84432f9b.jpg

Nelson spotted this. Is this a Catapaecilma elegans ? Sorry for the poor quality of the shot. Nelson you should have a better shot of it.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4649966254_f3a4af2d0c.jpg

Thanks.

[horace2264]

The second shot could also be Catapaecilma major which was listed as extant in the early reseachers' checklist for Singapore.

The difference between C. major and C. elegans is the latter lacks, "on the forewing beneath, a post-discal stripe betwen the end-cell bar and the submarginal fascia." (from C&P4 p.295). In your shot, that post-discal stripe is there, if I am not mistaken.

Looks like we have another re-discovery for Singapore. Congrats. :cheers:

[Commander]

Yes! It's been a long time since we had a confirmed +1 for Singapore. This species was last seen on Ubin by Chung Pheng and a few of us but we didn't manage to get a good shot of it.

Well done! :cheers:

[Silverstreak]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4649966254_f3a4af2d0c.jpg

Wow !

Congratulations!!!!!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[butterfly_effect]

Congratulations Chng! :D

[Commander]

The first shot is a Lemon Emigrant (Catopsilia pomona pomona) female form-pomona.

[Blue Nawab]

Congrats Chng! Great Capture! :yahoo:

[The Plane]

We should all thank and congratulate Nelson. He turned around and spotted it. He should have a much better decent shot.

In the Indian Butterfliers book, its called Common Tinsel ?

[Peacock Royal]

Wow, well done guys.

[The Plane]

The first shot is a Lemon Emigrant (Catopsilia pomona pomona) female form-pomona.

Thanks Uncle Khew for the correction.

[bluefin]

Oops, late to the party, here's the shot. :cheers:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4650238384_1d8d1cda40_b.jpg

[Peacock Royal]

Nelson, that is a beautiful shot of a strange-looking butterfly.

[The Plane]

Nelson, really a nice and precious shot :thumbsup:

[Commander]

Horace, what do you think? Its a Gray Tinsel (C. major emas)? :thinking:

[horace2264]

Horace, what do you think? Its a Gray Tinsel (C. major emas)? :thinking:
We can rule out C. elegans with the clear view of the forewing underside taken by Nelson.

According to C&P4, C. major and C. lila are "very similar superficially", and the one way to tell is via the male genitalia. Between the two, C. major is the species "more frequently encountered" while C. lila is "much rarer".

Strictly we can only be sure with a male specimen, but given C. major is more common and also listed in the early checklist for Singapore and C. lila is not, my bet is on C. major. :thinking:

[Commander]

A most logical conclusion.

So we welcome (after a long time since Chung Pheng had a very blurred shot of it from Ubin) our re-discovered species #295 for the Singapore Checklist. :redbounce

If CP is around, can you check when you shot was taken on Ubin? Perhaps this species used Ubin as a pit stop when it hopped over to the northern part of Singapore island where Nelson and Chng shot it. A good bet would be to also look for it on Ubin in the next weeks.

[Silverstreak]

From marking and what is rare and common and what was in the Researcher's checklist , I think Horace is right it is a catapaecilma major emas


:cheers:

[Great Mormon]

Congrads to the finding of this rare butterfly!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Very impresive shot Nelson! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[bluefin]

Thanks Fed, Chng, Ant for the kind words.:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Congratulations on this re-discovery. Yes, I am sure it is Catapaecilma major emas (Gray Tinsel), which is quite common up here. Yet another species I can no longer use to lure you up here!:grin2: SK will have to write another page!

For those wondering what the upperside is like, here are my only two photos, sorry about the quality. A female, no upperside male yet.

[Commander]

Thanks for the added confirmation of this re-discovery, Les.

[Banded Yeoman]

Congrats Chng!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Leopard Lacewing]

Wow!!! Congratulation Chng! :thumbsup:

Cheers! :cheers:

[Glorious Begum]

Wow.. great find guys. :cheers:

Saw it in Samui but didn't manage to shoot it. :cry:

[Silverstreak]

We should all thank and congratulate Nelson. He turned around and spotted it. He should have a much better decent shot.

In the Indian Butterfliers book, its called Common Tinsel ?


Oh ! Nelson spotted it and shot it first ...... and he was blurred like a sotong when I mentioned Catapaecilma major emas (Gray Tinsel ) to him , he asked me what english words was I mumbling!!!:bsmile:


Okie! The credit goes to Nelson for the rediscovery and we congratulate both of you for your +1 on this newly rediscovered species !!!:bsmile:

:cheers:

[Bluebottle]

Well done guys :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Leopard Lacewing]

Great discovery, guys! +1 :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Cheers!

[Banded Yeoman]

I'd say +5 :cheers:

[Branded Imperial]

Yay! :cheergal:

[Commander]

Here's a shot of what we kept in our UFO archives. This was taken on Pulau Ubin at the edge of a mangrove stream on 2 Oct 2004 by Chung Pheng (aka Rustic). After we saw it, CP let of a few shots, and it took off. It did not return. Subsequent trips to Ubin where we visited the same place didn't turn up anything.

Now we have a better record shot of this species, thanks to Nelson and Chng. :cheers:

[atronox]

Great shots and congrats to the rediscovery of C major!(lol sounds musical):bsmile: :redbounce
Was it found on the mainland this time?

[Rustic]

Finally, out of the UFO list. :)

[Silverstreak]

Good to have an UFO archives in your butt folder!

Look at Rustic , enjoying married life ,and I think wifey has locked up his camera to prevent him from flirting with butterflies ....... and he got a +1 from his UFO bin.:bsmile:

:thinking:Actually come to think of it, his shot from 2004 was clear enough to ID it as the C. major....as no other species come close to the markings of the Catapaecilma...

[Commander]

:thinking:Actually come to think of it, his shot from 2004 was clear enough to ID it as the C. major....as no other species come close to the markings of the Catapaecilma...

Not quite true there... like Yoda said...:old: "there is another".

Read Horace's earlier post taken from C&P4

"According to C&P4, C. major and C. lila are "very similar superficially", and the one way to tell is via the male genitalia. Between the two, C. major is the species "more frequently encountered" while C. lila is "much rarer".

There was no guarantee then to conclude that what CP shot was not C. lila. But even now, we cannot be sure, but adopting the process of elimination, we can rule out C lila simply because it's rarer and not likely to have appeared here. But there is always that 1% element of doubt - even with Nelson's shot.

But I'm quite happy to bet on the 99% and conclude that this is C. major for a variety of reasons that we've all contributed on this thread already.

1) Already listed in the early authors' checklists - C&P4 and Fleming
2) More common of the two lookalike species
3) No one else can prove us wrong otherwise, unless someone gets their hands on a specimen and do a dissection on it to prove that it's C. lila!

:cheers:

[Silverstreak]

SK,

What I meant was , from Rustics 2004 pic, we could have IDed it down to as Catapaecilma species. Though we are not certain what sub species , just like we are not certain on the subspecies of our Autumn leaf.


:cheers:

[Commander]

Oh... sorry then. :embrass:

That we know already. We had put it as a Catapaecilma back then. Even CP's 2004 UFO folder named it as "Catapaecilma sp." and we left it at that.

But I don't add to the checklist until we can drill down to at least the species level.

[Rustic]

Look at Rustic , enjoying married life ,and I think wifey has locked up his camera to prevent him from flirting with butterflies ....... and he got a +1 from his UFO bin.:bsmile:

KOL,

For the past 6 months, and the coming 6 months, I am attending Sunday Dhamma classes. So, that kinda of reduce my "flight time" to Saturday only.

In fact, I was in Sime Forest last Saturday. Unfortunately, the lantana bush is gone as they are paving a new track (or road) on top of the pipeline. Chanced upon two disoriented hikers near the stream, who lost their way; Decided to quit earlier so make sure that they reach the main road. Two cyclists were suggesting to them to go via Rifle Range Road!

Two counts of female tailed green jays laying eggs (but no good shot), one female common mime laying eggs (near the ex-lantana bush), one magpie (on the newly constructed path -- apparently feed on the concrete), one helen (strong flyer, but could not clearly ID), one rustic (near the junction of Jelutong tower), one male and one female Malay Baron, one female and two male Archduke, two or three common bluebottle "hopping", one Quaker, one Common Hedge Blue, Tree Yellows, ....

[Psyche]

The two species C. major & C. lila can be told apart.

Nelson/Chng 's picture
Male (abdominal tip truncated ).
Forewing termen convex ( typical of C. lila male ).
Note the two postdiscal spots in space 4 & 5 which can be traced from the forewing cell outwards. The upper spot 5 is inclined inwards so that its outer margin is in line with the lower spot 4's inner margin. ( view in a set position )

C&P4's line 6 of the key contains a grave typo error, transposing "space 4" with "space 5". Line 6 should read " Underside forewing the post-discal spot in space 5 stepped in, so that its outer edge is in line with the inner edge of the spot in space 4.
Compare Fleming's L331 Un for a clearcut match.

Chung Peng's Picture
Male ( abdominal tip truncated ).
Forewing termen straight ( typical of C major male )
Postdiscal spot in space 5 is only slightly inclined in (view in set position )
Again, compare Fleming's L329 Un for a clear match.

Thus, both Catapaecilma lila & C. major occur in Singapore.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Sorry, but now I am confused. Herewith two specimens from Samui. On one, the spots in 4 & 5 are in a line, in the other 4 is inwardly transposed, not 5. Are the both C. major?

[Psyche]

I see your dilemma, Les. I also got a bit of a shock , seeing your pic1.

Let me clear up some points here.
There is no spot in space 1, which is hidden by the hindwing at rest. The spots you see are in spaces 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 near the costa. Spots 4 & 5 , always close together directly faces the cell-end. The spot tilted inwards is spot 5.

Let me said that your pic 2 is a perfect match for Fleming's L329.(C. major) Even the shapes of all the postdiscal spots are the same.

Your pic 1 is a perfect match for C&P4's pl45/7 in terms of all the spots, but the colour is that of C. evansi.

I can only say that based on the key , both are C. major males; pic 1 may have a hybrid element in it,

C. lila is quite different. The forewing termen is convex in the male. The spot in space 5 is tilted further inwards(also moved in slightly), so that the lower outer margin of this spot falls in line with the inner margin of the spot in space 4.( when viewed in a set position .)

Hoped this clear all your doubts.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Glorious Begum]

Sorry for OT (Off thread), a dummy here trying to draw it out on Nelson's pic.

I always read the spot (4 & 5) as (5 & 6). Am I right or just confused by the

http://butterflycircle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5921


Do point out if I made any mistakes. :cheers:

[Psyche]

Thank you, Lc,
You did an excellent job.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Hopefully this will convince the doubters.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

Sorry for OT (Off thread), a dummy here trying to draw it out on Nelson's pic.

I always read the spot (4 & 5) as (5 & 6). Am I right or just confused by the

http://butterflycircle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5921


Do point out if I made any mistakes. :cheers:

There is a tiny spot in space 9, but well forward of spot 6 in Catapaecilma.
In Arhopala, there is a spot in space 9 ( spot 9) just after the spot in space 6 (spot 6). Thus the upper four spots are 4,5,6, & 9.
Each space is named after the vein immediately below it.
There is no vein 8 and so no space 8 (or spot 8).
Vein 7 is a short fork off vein 9 , & so space 7 is a tiny space near the apex.
The spaces in the middle where the postdiscal spots are placed are spaces 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9. Rarely, there is a spot in space 1.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Glorious Begum]

Thanks Seow. Learning new things everyday. :cheers:


There is a tiny spot in space 9, but well forward of spot 6 in Catapaecilma.
In Arhopala, there is a spot in space 9 ( spot 9) just after the spot in space 6 (spot 6). Thus the upper four spots are 4,5,6, & 9.
Each space is named after the vein immediately below it.
There is no vein 8 and so no space 8 (or spot 8).
Vein 7 is a short fork off vein 9 , & so space 7 is a tiny space near the apex.
The spaces in the middle where the postdiscal spots are placed are spaces 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9. Rarely, there is a spot in space 1.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

This specimen is a female.

What appeared to be truncated is part of the natural curvature.
The 'truncated' part is too wide to be correct for a lycaenid male.
There is no hair fringe. I had thought it too old and worn and have lost the hair tuft.

Thus, the forewing curvature is no longer a selling point.(though curvature still greater than typical C. majorfemale)
The disposition of the two spots 4 & 5 still says it should be C. lila.

Les, since what you have is only C. major. If you have a female underside that matches this individual, then I really needs to issue a BIG, BIG APOLOGY.

:cheers:
TL Seow:sweat: :sweat:

[Glorious Begum]

Correction :

[Psyche]

Thank you again Lc.

TL Seow:cheers: :whistle:

[atronox]

Wow, this is a new record for Sg!:redbounce :cheers:

[Psyche]

Wow, this is a new record for Sg!:redbounce :cheers:

Oops, hold your horse, Aaron, when I first thought it was a male, I was 100% certain, but now that it is a female, I am no longer 100% sure. I didn't expect Lc to print the name there.

We will have to wait and see if someone is lucky enough to shoot another specimen, a male and preferably with the topside exposed as well.

TL Seow:cheers: