The 'Other' Knight (Lebadea martha malayana)

[butterfly_effect]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4318774478_8706d825e8.jpg

Found this knight at Chek Jawa... never shot it before so pretty elated even though it's not a pristine specimen.

[Great Mormon]

Very nice shot of the Knight Ellen! Great undistracting perch too! :)

[Silverstreak]

Ellen,

Nice shot!

The central positioning also works well..........rules are to be broken.:)

:cheers:

[Banded Yeoman]

Great shot.

I have yet to get a good shot of this fellow.

[atronox]

Nice shot!
Great detail in the wings too.:grin2:

[Sky Blue]

Sorry but looks more like parkeri to me, with the purple tint.

[butterfly_effect]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3306/3517917409_5967ebd11e.jpg

Soon Chye, i think you can easier see the difference here. Erm... I don't have much affinity with male parkeri knights otherwise can show you male pic... :)

[Commander]

Good that you checked your C&P4 to compare your first shot, Ellen. :thumbsup:

My old website (http://www.butterflycircle.org/nymphalidae/nymphalinae/martha.htm) shows two males of the different subspecies, with the ssp malayana shot at Desaru in Johor.

[butterfly_effect]

nice! Cp4 also said that the males of the form malayana had narrower wings. It seems the same for the form parkeri from your pic! Interesting.:) both males seem to have more falcate wings than the females!

[Sky Blue]

Soon Chye, i think you can easier see the difference here. Erm... I don't have much affinity with male parkeri knights otherwise can show you male pic... :)Ellen, you are right, parkeri has more distinctive purple tint, Steven Neo's book show a good sample on book cover. The malayana that I came across, has no purple tint at all, so I wonder is yrs the so call intermediate form?

[atronox]

It's possible for a whole range of intermediates between ssp.:grin2:

[butterfly_effect]

Soon Chye... that's interesting... can I find the pic on the book anywhere or do you think you can put up the pic? It'd be interesting to see it! :)

[Sky Blue]

I'm quite curious too, no photo yet but already make appointment to check the malayana specimen in museum (they've 5 from P. Malaysia) ;-)

Perhaps Khew can share with us the intermediate specimen taken in Tekong & Ubin?

[butterfly_effect]

But I thought you said it's on the cover of Steven's book? Can maybe take a photo of it? Curious lei.... :)

[butterfly_effect]

oh paiseh... I mis-read your earlier post... hahaha...

[Sky Blue]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4318774478_8706d825e8.jpg

Ok, backed from museum, checked the malayana specimen from various location of P. Malaysia (e.g. Pahang, Perak, Langkawi), the actual specimen show 0% of purplish tint, both the male & female. So for the one you shoot, I'm 99.99% sure that it's not a malayana, and most likely a hybrid ;-) .

Btw, there's a pakeri specimen labeled wrongly & Dr. Kirton corrected it (probably during the recent visit), so I've no doubt on the status of those malayana.

Specimen shots of Lebadea martha malayana (sorry for big picture, just wanted to show it more clearly)

Male 1
http://www.sgbug.org/butterflies/photo1/set_specimen/1228_1265719203.jpg

Male 2
http://www.sgbug.org/butterflies/photo1/set_specimen/1228_1265719224.jpg

Female 1
http://www.sgbug.org/butterflies/photo1/set_specimen/1228_1265719477.jpg

Female 2
http://www.sgbug.org/butterflies/photo1/set_specimen/1228_1265719492.jpg

[Commander]

If some of those specimens carry the Langkawi label and the collector is MJV Miller (who was my mentor when I was a schoolboy), the specimens are of the subspecies martha and not malayana. So if you've labelled those captured in Langkawi as malayana that is incorrect. As mentioned in C&P4, even those in Perak and Kedah have the intermediates between ssp martha and ssp malayana. However, as ssp martha is not shown in C&P4, you may not be aware of the differences.

The intermediates vary quite a bit between martha and parkeri. So it's not technically called a "hybrid" as such, because there isn't a consistent hybrid occurring yet, but a series of intermediates which do not yet yield a clear subspecies.

Let me search for a couple of old comparison shots that Steven Neo and I did some time back when we were comparing some Tekong Knights.

As far as I'm concerned, Ellen's shot is that of an intermediate ssp malayana and not some unnamed hybrid, as it displays more of the characteristics of malayana than that of parkeri.

[Commander]

Some shots from my archives during the Tekong expeditions. Pardon the small photos though. Taken some time ago. ;P

By the way, the narrow submarginal band on some specimens of malayana do have a slight bluish tint. Those that I've collected from around Ulu Kancing in KL also display that, whilst others are totally brownish. So it's not a definitive characteristic of malayana that is even mentioned in C&P4.

Note the male ssp martha from Langkawi. You may also want to add the labels for the location to your photos. The Langkawi ones are ssp martha.

[Sky Blue]

I'm aware abt the existence of ssp martha, shown in the Thai book. The specimen that I show here, are labeled as malayana. One of them from pahang. Thanks for correcting the hybrid term, yes I meant the intermediate.

[Commander]

I'm aware abt the existence of ssp martha, shown in the Thai book. The specimen that I show here, are labeled as malayana. One of them from pahang. Thanks for correcting the hybrid term, yes I meant the intermediate.

Ok. You mean RMBR only has 5 specimens? Heck, between Steven and I, we probably have 4-5 times more! ;P

Moving north towards Perak and Kedah, (and maybe including Pahang), there may be some intermediates again between ssp martha and ssp malayana. I wonder if Pahang falls into that zone. I have no specimens from Pahang though. :thinking:

[Commander]

This is one of the more recent shots of what I would consider an intermediate malayana during my last Tekong outing on 5 Mar 2007 (pardon the poor quality). Compare that with the other shot of another female, which is quite certainly ssp parkeri taken at TBHP

It would be interesting to breed some of the Ubin ones to see what comes out. The north eastern area of Ubin is where the intermediates are most often seen.

There have been shots of ssp malayana also taken at Pasir Ris Park in recent years.

[Sky Blue]

That's the problem, not many like to donate their collection to museum for public learning for whatever reasons. I know of one old butt kaki even want to bring all his collection into coffin :-O

[Commander]

That's the problem, not many like to donate their collection to museum for public learning for whatever reasons. I know of one old butt kaki even want to bring all his collection into coffin :-O

:bsmile: And to imagine that some time back, when I wanted to donate my collection to Sentosa, they rejected it. :prrr:

Anyway, I have an agreement with RMBR. :) Look closely at some of the skipper collection when you next visit. Some of my specimens are there.

As far as I know, the biggest personal collection in Singapore is still kept by the Doggett family. Victor Doggett who passed away some time in 1991 lived in the Changi area. His son did not want to part with the collection from what I've been told. When I communicated with Victor some time in 1989, he said that he has a collection of more than 900 species from Singapore and Malaysia. I don't know if RMBR tried to get that collection or not.

If you are wondering why the name Doggett sounds familiar, read page 60 of C&P4, 2nd line. :grin2:

[atronox]

Seems like Mr Khew's 2 Tekong specimens are the intermediates.

[Silverstreak]

:hmmm:

so is this a parkeri ... Correct?

.


.

[Sky Blue]

Anyway, I have an agreement with RMBR. :) Look closely at some of the skipper collection when you next visit. Some of my specimens are there. Sound like you will donate yr collection one day? Do donate more leh :D


As far as I'm concerned, Ellen's shot is that of an intermediate ssp malayana, as it displays more of the characteristics of malayana than that of parkeri.So in the "double-barrelled" term, it's malayana parkery :D


The musuem collection, as mentioned in the earlier thread, I believed Dr. Kirton had at least checked through (thus the correction), so the label should be correct. I'll double check with him again.

I'll follow-up again on the exact location of those individual specimen, will be good for future reference.

[Commander]

so is this a parkeri ... Correct?


The characteristic bluish areas on the hindwings are there in a much greater extent than the usual malayana. So even if it's an intermediate or variation, in my opinion, I would classify it under ssp parkeri.

Sometimes it's difficult to define what are normal variations in a butterfly's physical appearance, as it ranges from species to species. For example, if you looked at the RMBR's Lime Butterfly specimens, they vary from very pale yellow to almost a dirty orange! Also, the markings vary from specimen to specimen. So although there are some general markings that help ID a species, many of them are quite variable, as Mother Nature is no cookie-cutter manufacturer.

[Commander]

Sound like you will donate yr collection one day? Do donate more leh :D

I know Ms Lua, the curator, very well for over 10 years already. This kind of thing, I do behind the scenes and don't like the limelight. :)

But like you said, there is no point in keeping the collection when I'm no longer around. When my mentor passed me his collection, he said the same thing. I have specimens in my collection dating back to 1954 (A Great Helen). I wasn't even born yet! ;P



The musuem collection, as mentioned in the earlier thread, I believed Dr. Kirton had at least checked through (thus the correction), so the label should be correct. I'll double check with him again.

I'll follow-up again on the exact location of those individual specimen, will be good for future reference.

Yes, if you check with him, tell him the location of the captured specimen. If it's Langkawi, those will be of the same series that MJV Miller gave to me, probably even the same date or month!

[Commander]

If you are wondering why the name Doggett sounds familiar, read page 60 of C&P4, 2nd line. :grin2:

Just to elaborate this 'historical anecdote' which not many people may be aware of, the discovery of the ssp trogon (or mollumar) of the Rajah Brooke's Birdwing on the eastern side of Johor as written by Col Eliot in C&P4, was by these 3 friends who were from Singapore - Victor Doggett, Norman Parker and Bernard D'Abrera. The first two are no longer around, whilst Bernard, who is the photographer behind all the coloured plates in C&P4, went on to write more books. Some of you may be familiar with some of his books on Birdwings of the World and so on. He recently visited Nature's Niche about 3-4 years back when it was still at SBG. He is still a good photographer. :)

Of course, the subject of Ellen's thread, is ssp parkeri that was discovered by Norman Parker and credited to him.

Victor Doggett was a well-known music teacher in Singapore and was very popular in his time. He has a music school which I believe, is still in operations today. His wife, Marjorie Doggett, was associated with the SPCA (Singapore) for many years. I am not sure if she's still with us, and if she is, she should be in her 90's now. :sweat:

Those interested in these little bits of historical trivia, can now check on the online database of Straits Times, and of course, there's Yahoo and Google.

[Glorious Begum]

Blardy confusing, tell me what is this then ?

[Commander]

Subspecies malayana. :)

[Sky Blue]

malayana, any blue or purple tint at the hindwing on the actual specimen?