Can anyone help with the ID of this skipper?

[Painted Jezebel]

Found yesterday, I originally though that this was Suastus everyx. However, there are some major irregularities when compared to all the various photos I have seen of that species.

Firstly, far too many spots on the hindwing. Secondly there appear to be faint subapical markings on the forewing.

I have a few contenders, but none seem to match perfectly :
Zographetus doxus (too dark hindwing)
Salanoemia sala (possibly the closest match, but again, the hindwing seems too dark in the pictures seen)
Suastus minutus flemingi (same problems as for S. everyx)

[Commander]

There's no scale to the picture unfortunately, but I assume that it must be a small fella, for you to rule out S. gremius? There are probably more subspecies of these variable buggers in your territory, so more searches are definitely required.

In an earlier discussion, we also highlighted the variations in the number of black hindwing spots in Suastus gremius. Perhaps this is a feature in the genus? :thinking:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks for replying, SK. Yes, it is very much smaller than S. gremius. I have discovered that this is the second time I have seen this (first time was in February 2008). The first one I tentatively ID'd as S. everyx, based on a blurred photo. I am not so sure I was right now!

I had already checked in Pisuth's book, and Pinratana's, and could only find those I mentioned in the original post. All the photos of S. everyx in these tomes show specimens much like that shot by Fed recently. Obviously, what I must do is find another and collect it to see if it has the white tornal area on the upperside hindwing! It may take another 15 months!!:bsmile: I thought I had a specimen already, but not so.:thumbsdow

[Commander]

Ha ha... good luck at nailing your next specimen then. The curious thing that we've observed about S everyx is that it appears within a very specific location in the nature reserves, and most, if not all, of us shot it in that place.

So if you go back to the same location regularly, you may get one sitting there for you again!

Good luck! A lepidopterist's work is never done... ;P

[Painted Jezebel]

Resurrecting this thread as I have now reached the S's for the Hesperidae (I have it in a Suastus file!), and I still have no idea! Seen now three times, but still unable to capture it.

Perhaps some of our newer members may recognise it.

[teotp]

Hi Les,

Just for your information: the hindwing markings are same as the male specimen, Suastus minutus aditia Evans, figured in "The Butterflies of Thailand based on Yunosuke Kimura collection volume 1: Hesperiidae, Papilionidae and Pieridae" edited by Y. Kimura, T. Aoki, S. Yamaguchi, Y. Uemura & T. Saito, page 71, 2011. The authors described it is smaller than S. gremius and the white mark in space 2 on upperside forewing is formed with verticle or circle shape. (Note: The subapical markings on the underside of forewing from your photo are not matching the figured specimen).

Teo T P

[Painted Jezebel]

Thank you, Teo. Certainly the ssp. S. m. aditia has better defined markings than ssp. flemingi. This is causing me a bit of a problem. I attach below, a photo of Suastus minutus flemingi (at least it looks like it to me), which is the subspecies found on the peninsular, and is common here, seen many times every year. I have a few specimens, and none of them have the forewing subapical markings.

The rules of sympatry do not allow me to have both subspecies here, or so I understand.

[Psyche]

Here is a perfect match.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/monsoon_jyoti_gogoi/4284321059/in/pool-butterfliesofnortheast
There are only 2 species of Suastus found in India, gremius & minutus.
S. everyx is found only from South Myanmar to Sumatra/Borneo, so this is really S. minutus aditia.
(I have thought this might be S. gremius because it looks big, but gremius always have well-defined spots.)

From the same site the other colour form of S. minutus aditia is also found.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/monsoon_jyoti_gogoi/4284321057/in/pool-butterfliesofnortheast%7Cmonsoon_jyoti_gogoi
(This looks different but the level of white shading is variable.)

TL Seow:cheers:
PS. I initially thought it was minutus, then gremius & now it is minutus again.
Not sure what the 2nd is since the upper is chestnut coloured, but it is likely to be S. minutus too. Its so worn even the white hindwing cilia are missing.

[teotp]

Certainly the ssp. S. m. aditia has better defined markings than ssp. flemingi. This is causing me a bit of a problem. I attach below, a photo of Suastus minutus flemingi (at least it looks like it to me), which is the subspecies found on the peninsular, and is common here, seen many times every year. I have a few specimens, and none of them have the forewing subapical markings.

The rules of sympatry do not allow me to have both subspecies here, or so I understand.

Y. Kimura also stated in his book under the heading S. minutus aditia :"Amnuay illustrated the figure in his book in 2006 as one of the subspecies, flemingi, which was caught at Ranong, but illustrated figure seems to be subspecies aditia". The second photo match the figured specimen of S. minutus aditia in Kimura's book.

So it looks like subspecies flemingi may not be there. By the way, where you got this insect? Kimura also posted a distribution map of this subspecies in Thailand in his book.

Teo T P

(Note: Amnuay = Pisuth Ek-Amnuay)

[Painted Jezebel]

Thank you both. The species were all taken on Koh Samui, which is in the southern peninsular, so we would expect species/subspecies found in S Myanmar to be found here, or at least on the mainland, as we are south of the border, Ranong is a border post between Thailand and S. Myanmar. The vast majority of species/subspecies we have here are of Sundalandian origin, only a few species spreading south from the Indo-Chinese, Indo-Burmese faunal areas.

I must admit that I used EkAmnuay's book for ID, and his photo was not included in the 19 page errata he prepared, so I took it as being correct. I also looked at Pinratana (Volume 5), who pictures ssp. aditia, and it looked nothing like mine.

[Psyche]

Another reason why this is S. minutus is that, as stated in the text, the forewing is unmarked in S. everyx. In the female(S. everyx) small spots may be present in space 2 & in the cell, both which would be hidden at rest.
Your skipper shows 2 hyaline spots in space 6 & 7.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

I have already happily moved all the photos to my minutus file. What concerns me is the subspecies. As explained, geographically, I would have expected to find ssp. flemingi here, not ssp. aditia.

[teotp]

Thank you both. The species were all taken on Koh Samui, which is in the southern peninsular, so we would expect species/subspecies found in S Myanmar to be found here, or at least on the mainland, as we are south of the border, Ranong is a border post between Thailand and S. Myanmar. The vast majority of species/subspecies we have here are of Sundalandian origin, only a few species spreading south from the Indo-Chinese, Indo-Burmese faunal areas.

I must admit that I used EkAmnuay's book for ID, and his photo was not included in the 19 page errata he prepared, so I took it as being correct. I also looked at Pinratana (Volume 5), who pictures ssp. aditia, and it looked nothing like mine.

You are welcome Les. I also refer to Pinratana's book but more information from Kimura. Mr. Yunosuke Kimura spending more than 30 years collecting with Brother Amnuay Pinratana in Thailand as indicated in the preface and introduction pages.
The following are the collecting details of Suastus minutus aditia documented in his book: (m=male; f-female)

Phu Khiewo: 1f 16 Mar 1976, 1m 11 Jul 1976 and 2m 4 Jul 1988.
Nakohn Nayok: 1m 22 Jul 1973.
Wan Nam Khiewo: 1m 19 Feb 1978.
Phu Pha Thaep: specimens collected by Yamaguichi & Aoki* in 2002.
Kaeng E-Keow: Yamaguichi & Aoki*, 2002.
Phu Chong Na Yoi: Yamaguichi & Aoki*, 2002.
Kao Khiewo: 1m 20 Jun1976.
Kao Chamaoh: 1m 3 Mar 1986.
Than To WF: 2m 20-21 Apr 1986, 1m 17 Jul 1986, 1m 20 Jun 1987, 2m 3-6 May 1987, 2m 1-5 Apr 1991, 2m 14-15 Apr 1991, 1m 4 May 1994, 1m 10 May 1997 and 1m 4 Mar 1998.

Mr. Kimura used the above collecting locations to plot the species distribution map in Thailand. I totally do not know whether any of the above locations near to Koh Samui and need your help to point them out to me.

Teo T P

(*Note: Yamaguichi and Aoki are the co-authors of the book)

[Psyche]

I have already happily moved all the photos to my minutus file. What concerns me is the subspecies. As explained, geographically, I would have expected to find ssp. flemingi here, not ssp. aditia.

C&P4 stated that ssp. flemingi is restricted to the interior of the Malay peninsula & from Kedawi (ie Kedah-Langkawi ) northwards, only ssp. aditia occur.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thank you for this information. Of those 9 localities, I only found 5 mentioned on my large detailed map. Two (Nakhon Nayok & Wan Nam Khiewo) are just to N-E of Bangkok, two (Phu Khiewo & Kao Khiewo) are in N-E Thailand, but the last, Than To WF (I would think that means Waterfall) is right on the Thai/Malaysian border, in Yala Province, south-western coast of Thailand. (Kao means small mountain)

This last one is the nearest to me, only 350KM away to the South of me! The others are at least 800KM to the North of me. This must make me question the distribution of the ssp. flemingi. What is it doing in S. Myanmar, skipping Peninsular Thailand only to be found again in Malaysia?

I have come to the conclusion that, with the exception of the deep south around Yala and Narathiwat Provinces, and Ranong Province on the Thai/Burmese border, very little work has ever been done in the Peninsular.

Incidentally, does Kimura mention ssp. flemingi at all in the book?

[Painted Jezebel]

C&P4 stated that ssp. flemingi is restricted to the interior of the Malay peninsula & from Kedawi (ie Kedah-Langkawi ) northwards, only ssp. aditia occur.

TL Seow:cheers:

Thank you. You posted this whilst I was writing the above post. This explains the distribution of flemingi. I will happily change my ssp. on the site and in my draft paper to ssp. aditia.

Thank you both for this wonderful discussion. I have learnt a lot! I do have questions, but they are far too geographically and geologically complicated to deal with here.

[teotp]

Incidentally, does Kimura mention ssp. flemingi at all in the book?

Thanks Les for the information regarding the locations.
No, S. minutus flemingi is not listed as a subspecies in Kimura's book.

Teo T P

[teotp]

The species were all taken on Koh Samui, which is in the southern peninsular, so we would expect species/subspecies found in S Myanmar to be found here, or at least on the mainland, as we are south of the border, Ranong is a border post between Thailand and S. Myanmar. The vast majority of species/subspecies we have here are of Sundalandian origin, only a few species spreading south from the Indo-Chinese, Indo-Burmese faunal areas.

The range of a species or subspecies may be small, just a few areas of a country, and within the areas it may occur only at scattered sites. Jame A. Scott (1986) pointed out that butterflies do not survive equally well in all microhabitats and climates. Each species or subspecies has adapted to survive best in places with particular combination of host plants, weather and other necessities (e.g. food resources and roosting sites for larvae and adults, availability of females, activities of other species and insects, predators, parasitoids, pathogens..etc). As no habitats stand still, the amount of rainfall and sunshine affect these factors every minute, hour and day.

However, it is difficult to see a rare species or subspecies maintain themself, especially in the forest. Ecologists and collectors (including photographers) never obtain access to the precise locations where these species or subspecies fly, and such species and subspecies tending to be fairly common in restricted area at particular times of the year.

Teo T P

(Reason for editing: typing error.)