Discussion of J.anasuja, N.amrita, M. hypoleuca

[horace2264]

Wow. Your postprocessing really make a lot of difference to the appearance of the butt. Thanks for the advice on the amount of fill-in flash, will keep at it to figure out the best settings for different lighting conditions for both butt and the backgorund. Of course, proper postprocessing technique is also one skill I am keen to pick up. Life is more fun when there are things in the pipeline to learn and enjoy!

Horace

[Cruiser]

Have you got any under side pics of the "Jacoona?" for ID'ing purpose.

[horace2264]

Thanks Khew for the pointers on the various aspects of digital postprocessing and the techniques on close-up photography. I have read a number of library books on this topic and learn a few things there. But putting them in practice is a challenge itself. Still on the earlier part of the learning curve!

As for Ben Jin's query about the underside of the Jacoona butt, I did manage a very rushed shot of it at the tree-top level after climbing back to the board walk. The quality is poor as the camera was still at the previoius manual settings, and there is bad hand-shake (age and the climb were having an effect one me, I suppose). Anyway, I post the picture (the original and 600x400 cropped portion of it containing the butt) here for all to examine.

[Commander]

Hmm... from a still shot, I must acknowledge that it's not easy to separate it from the Grand Imperial. One must see it in flight as well, and you are the only one to do so. The tails seem more "sword-like" and rigid as compared to the Grand Imperial. :thinking:

[horace2264]

The slightly opened forewings still revealed the small blue patch on the upperside of the forewing, and this to me seems to be the distinguishing feature between this male Jacoona and a male GI (I just bought a copy of C&P4, and referred to plate 48).

Does the GI fly with a clearly audible sound as well? The sound I heard while the Jacoona was flying from point to point was pretty loud. It was the first time I hear a butterfly in flight.

Horace

[Silverstreak]

I might have seen and taken a shot of the female Jaccona side profile at KRP without realising it some months back thinking it was a super size Common Imperial!

I was telling Simon I shot the Grand Imperial but it looks like a Common imperial with the tails much shorter but of the size of the Grand Imperial..... still searching for the archived pic somewhere in my stacks of VCD.;P

From C&P4 :

Plate 48 Fig 1&2 +Fig 3&4

It is depicted that the male of the Jaccona has shorter and broader tails as compare to the female.

For the Female of Jacoona , both sets of tails of are shorter and more rigid as compare to Grand Imperial (picture below)which are much longer and flutter with the slightest of wind.

[Commander]

Does the GI fly with a clearly audible sound as well? The sound I heard while the Jacoona was flying from point to point was pretty loud. It was the first time I hear a butterfly in flight.

That's new to me. First time that I've heard that such a small butterfly makes a sound when flying. Very interesting... :thinking:

The only one that I know that "clicks" loudly, is the female of the Tawny Palmfly. Some skippers when zooming around tends to "buzz" our ears, but that's about it.

What did the Jacoona's flight sound like?

[horace2264]

The sound?
It reminds me of the sound heard in movie/TV or even in some computer games when there is a live and cut electrical wire dangling in the air, and then occasionally it comes into contact with a wet surface with tiny sparks flying around.

Maybe the butt only made the sound specifically to warn me to stay away?

Horace

[Silverstreak]

This one we need the Nokia N93 to do a video recording!!

:bsmile:

[Commander]

This one we need the Nokia N93 to do a video recording!!

I can foresee another new toy on the way for Sunny. :)

[richardlbong]

Well done Horace. I have never seen the Jaccona before. Is this at the MNT where I met you?
Richard

[horace2264]

Yes Richard, it is indeed near where I met you at MNT two weeks ago.

[horace2264]

I ran a google search on Jacoona and found the link http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~EY4Y-TKNM/Sumatra96/sumatra.html

It contains a shot of an Jacoona anasuja very similar to what I have found. It shows a male specimen with sword-like and stiff tails.
Next to this picture you can also see an upperside shot of a male GI.

Horace

[Silverstreak]

Heard the sound very similar to what you described yesterday from some low bush, close to where we met.

It is a fairly high pitch sort of short buzz, I stayed around for close to 10 minutes, first observing silently and later "agitated "the bush but see no butts around.

Suspect it is from some form of insects and might be conincidental that you heard it when you saw the Jaccona.


:)




The sound?
It reminds me of the sound heard in movie/TV or even in some computer games when there is a live and cut electrical wire dangling in the air, and then occasionally it comes into contact with a wet surface with tiny sparks flying around.


Originally Posted by horace2264
Does the GI fly with a clearly audible sound as well? The sound I heard while the Jacoona was flying from point to point was pretty loud. It was the first time I hear a butterfly in flight.

[horace2264]

Very interesting observation you made there of the buzzing sound near the Jacoona sighting area. It could be coincidental that same bug was around when that Jacoona took flight last week, and this bug made the same sound (may be it read the Jacoona as a threat). I hope I will get to hear this sound during next visit to MNT.

Actually the Jacoona made two straight-line flights, the first one about 3-metres from ground to a nearby bush, paused for a short whle, and then another 6-metres to the tree top. And both times, the buzz (or clicking sound as written in the literature) sound were heard.

Horace

[Cruiser]

I might have seen and taken a shot of the female Jaccona side profile at KRP without realising it some months back thinking it was a super size Common Imperial!

I was telling Simon I shot the Grand Imperial but it looks like a Common imperial with the tails much shorter but of the size of the Grand Imperial..... still searching for the archived pic somewhere in my stacks of VCD.;P

From C&P4 :

Plate 48 Fig 1&2 +Fig 3&4

It is depicted that the male of the Jaccona has shorter and broader tails as compare to the female.

For the Female of Jacoona , both sets of tails of are shorter and more rigid as compare to Grand Imperial (picture below)which are much longer and flutter with the slightest of wind.

Just got the backup HD installed and in the archive I found this GI(?) taken back in 2002 which I ID it as GI. It has a rather short tails than most GI in our collection, any idea is this a GI or possibly a Jacoona anasuja anasuja, thk!

[Painted Jezebel]

By my reckoning, what you have here is a female Manto hypoleuca terana (known up here as The Green Imperial). The amount of orange on the hind wing and tail length does it for me, and matches the pic in Pinratana perfectly. This would, of course, be a new species for Singapore.

Les

[Painted Jezebel]

At Cruiser's request, I attach a copy of the only photo I have seen of this species. It is from Ek-Amnuay's book, so I hope I am not breaking copyright. If I am, Master please delete this post. The amount of orange on the underwing matches.

Les

[Commander]

I do have a specimen of Manto hypoleuca from Johor. But the markings are actually not easy to completely differentiate from the Grand Imperial and also Jacoona anasuja just from the underside field shots.

Different books also showed different variations.

As a matter of curiousity, could you also upload shots from the book of Neocheritra amrita and Jacoona anasuja?

[The Monarch]

It is from Ek-Amnuay's book, so I hope I am not breaking copyright. If I am, Master please delete this post.
Les

This constitutes fair use, so don't worry abt it Les :).

[Painted Jezebel]

My camera has gone on the blink. It does this in v. high humidity, like today. Will be able to get photos for tomorrow morning. I only have pics of an Jacoona anasuja anasuja Male, likewise for Neocheritra amrita, whereas the pic of Manto hypoleuca is a Female. By the way, on the Butterflies of Indo-China website, it quotes Singapore as a place where it can be found, but does not give any references.

Les

[Painted Jezebel]

I bunged the camera into the fridge for 10 minutes and it seems to have done the trick. Here are photos you requested.

Les

[Cruiser]

Les, this one is shot by Rey, really with lots of orange colour, any comment :)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e318/sting-rey/Butterflies/DSC0680-after.jpg

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks for that. I now have have a copy of C+P4:jumjoy: , and I can see how the ID problem has arrived. With 3 sources to compare photos from, I am sure we can now discount Jacoona anasuja, too much hind wing orange and tails too short.

I note that there are parallel black markings in space 3 of the hindwing. Neocheritra amrita amrita only has one black line in 3 in all my pics, whilst Manto hypoleuca terana has these markings. Also the very thin black & white hind wing border only reached space 4 in Neochritra, whilst in this photo it reaches space 6 (only very faintly), and this corresponds to Manto.

I think I am sticking with my original decision that this is M. hypoleuca terana, the Green Imperial.

Still, I will wait to see what others think.

Les:hello:

[Cruiser]

Putting all side-by-side for comparison. Judging form the markings and length of the tails, very close match to the M. hypoleuca terana indeed :thinking:

Experts pls comment, thx.

[Silverstreak]

Another cheap shot for the record, shot today at NSPL

[Cruiser]

Sunny, judging from the markings and length of your shot I'm sure you captured the same species as what I & Rey shot before and I tend to agree with Les this is possibly a M. hypoleuca terana (sighted before per C&P4, p424).

[Commander]

Seems to have been shot quite a few times. :thinking:

[Common Mime]

BJ, your shot below looks like a J. anasuja to me instead of a N. amrita comparing the marking at its hingwing and the orange color on the hindwing. A N. amrita seems to have more orange color on the hindwing near to a basal area. :thinking:

[atronox]

:sweat: Since we r on the topic of these fluffy -tailed orange things, i m sorry that i haf to complicate matters by askin wat the diff is for these three spp. n mantoides gama gama.:sweat:

[Commander]

Sunny, judging from the markings and length of your shot I'm sure you captured the same species as what I & Rey shot before and I tend to agree with Les this is possibly a M. hypoleuca terana (sighted before per C&P4, p424).


I think I am sticking with my original decision that this is M. hypoleuca terana, the Green Imperial.

Finally got a close encounter today to verify. I'm in agreement with your conclusions with a view of the upperside at last, and it's indeed a Green Imperial (M. hypoleuca terana). This is #284 and a re-discovery for Singapore.

Like Aaron suggested, there is also an element of doubt initially, that it could also be M. gama gama, but the one I encountered today matches the upperside of a female of M. hypoleuca. :gbounce: However, one observation is that the one I saw today matches closest to what Rey shot, where the big black tornal spot is missing.

Soon Chye, in the checklist, please move the shots by Rey and Richard under M. hypoleuca terana. Add in BJ's shots as well.


BJ, your shot below looks like a J. anasuja to me instead of a N. amrita comparing the marking at its hingwing and the orange color on the hindwing. A N. amrita seems to have more orange color on the hindwing near to a basal area. :thinking:

Nope. The significant difference between N. amrita are the extra long tails which J. anasuja does not have. The sword-like stiffer trails of J. anasuja is so far consistent in all the books that I have as reference. So what Ben Jin shot is indeed N. amrita.

[Silverstreak]

:cheers::cheers:


#284


:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[Sky Blue]

Done, BJ's shot also moved in. Hope I done it correctly.

[atronox]

Another one!:grin2: