Jamides ID

[MinuteMaid]

Need some help with these.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8458018978_423dde4229.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8458018978/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8458018978/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

Is this J. celeno?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8456919379_e97ce1933a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

J. alecto?

[Psyche]

All three are J. alecto.

To ID J. celeno group, note forewing postdiscal band is complete & not dislocated.
Failing this (as in pic 1) hindwing basal band not dislocated (ie. for celeno.).

It can difficult to separate J. elpis & alecto.

J. alecto has broader white striae.
In particular, forewing submarginal white striae broadened noticeably towards the tornus.
Hindwing 3rd stria fron base( after the band) becomes as broad (or almost so) as the marginal white stria of the black spot.
http://wanderingbutterflyeffect.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/6a0100a801ee89000e0123f1796e2a860f.jpg

J. elpis: white striae thinner.
Forewing subamrginal white striae (especially inner of the two) not so broadened as in alecto.
Hindwing 3rd stria (after the basal band) noticeably thinner than the marginal white stria at the black spot.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Schir/Jamides-elpis-pseudelpis-Glistering.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rzo8wjfyCsM/Swa7iEAhb8I/AAAAAAAAEcw/WBiS6NqxcHw/s1600/JE_adult_female_03.jpg

TL Seow:cheers:

[MinuteMaid]

Dr. Seow,

The upperside of the mating pair in flight was a very pale blue, almost white. Whereas the 2nd picture, upperside is more bluish but also quite light in color.

There was another female nearby with more bluish uppersides than all the above.

Is the upperside coloration so variable? Also I notice in nearly all J. Alecto, the underside markings near the tornal on the hindwing forms a unique pattern. But this is also variable right?

[Psyche]

Admittedly the marginal/submarginal bands on the forewing looks like celeno in pic 1.

However, in the male on the left, the hindwing basal band is distinctly dislocated in 2 places. Check with the Checklist images of celeno.
2ndly, the extended orange marks are seen only in elpis/alecto.

The colour of J. celeno is like a blue-tinged white, but you have better experience here.
The colour of alecto is a light blue, & I supposed it will depend on the ambient light.

In Singapore, there are local colonies with the 'barb' pattern as in Ellen's pic.
Here is Federick's shot of another with a slightly different barb.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0EK80AsaR7g/Sulpy8h2JeI/AAAAAAAAB20/U5VPGn-8xlE/s400/DSC0217-Jamides-alecto-agelades+(M+Caerulean).jpg

The best ID difference for alecto is that the forewing discal band's white striae (inner two) as they descend down to the dorsum are rather broad. You can see this clearly in Federick's shot.
In [/I]elpis[/I] they are rather narrow, but this feature is often hidden.

In your 2nd shot & Ellen's pic, a bit of the displaced outer margin can be seen & it is broad. (Note this is actually the dislocated stria of the postdiscal band.)

TL Seow:cheers: :cheers:

[MinuteMaid]

Admittedly the marginal/submarginal bands on the forewing looks like celeno in pic 1.

However, in the male on the left, the hindwing basal band is distinctly dislocated in 2 places. Check with the Checklist images of celeno.
2ndly, the extended orange marks are seen only in elpis/alecto.

The colour of J. celeno is like a blue-tinged white, but you have better experience here.
The colour of alecto is a light blue, & I supposed it will depend on the ambient light.

In Singapore, there are local colonies with the 'barb' pattern as in Ellen's pic.
Here is Federick's shot of another with a slightly different barb.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0EK80AsaR7g/Sulpy8h2JeI/AAAAAAAAB20/U5VPGn-8xlE/s400/DSC0217-Jamides-alecto-agelades+(M+Caerulean).jpg

The best ID difference for alecto is that the forewing discal band's white striae (inner two) as they descend down to the dorsum are rather broad. You can see this clearly in Federick's shot.
In [/I]elpis[/I] they are rather narrow, but this feature is often hidden.

In your 2nd shot & Ellen's pic, a bit of the displaced outer margin can be seen & it is broad. (Note this is actually the dislocated stria of the postdiscal band.)

TL Seow:cheers: :cheers:

thanks again Dr. Seow.

I had a feeling they were all alecto as they were all found within 10 meters of their torch ginger host plants, as well as their larger size and larger orange tornal patch. however the blueness of the upperside was what confused me.

i saw three distinct classes of blue. very light near white (in the case of the mating pair which was shot in direct open sun), light blue (as in the case of this emoticon :cool: ), and a deeper light blue that is similar to this emoticon (;-) )

perhaps it was due to ambient lighting. i did notice the darker blue coloration was seen in an individual flying in shade.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8282/7493120332_ba46eea834.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/7493120332/)
The Metallic Caerulean (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/7493120332/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

here's another male i shot awhile back with the distinctive barb that the ones i shot today did not have.

[Psyche]

Oops!, but I think you have stumbled onto something new.

In pic 1, apart from the forewing marginal band being not right, the hindwing marginal spots are also wrong for alecto/elpis.

In alecto/elpis, the spot in space 3(beside the big black spot) is round and the rest have rounded margins.

The hindwing basal band is probably subjected to some individual variations;( in the female in pic 1 it is almost complete.) Likewise, the orange mark.

The forewing marginal band is as for celeno/pura.

The hindwing marginal spots forms a neat band in celeno.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/checklist%20V2/CI/index.php/start-page/startpage/showbutterfly/180

In Jamides pura the marginal band on the hindwing forms a series of domed spots quite unlike alecto/elpis.
http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JamidesPuraTenusMFUpUnAC1.jpg

This would explain the discrepancy of the uppersides as pura is very pale blue.

As I am in my hometown in NS, I do not have the bible to double check this feature.
However, I do have a strong feeling that you have found Jamides pura.

TL Seow :cheers: & Happy New Year!

[MinuteMaid]

Oops!, but I think you have stumbled onto something new.

In pic 1, apart from the forewing marginal band being not right, the hindwing marginal spots are also wrong for alecto/elpis.

In alecto/elpis, the spot in space 3(beside the big black spot) is round and the rest have rounded margins.

The hindwing basal band is probably subjected to some individual variations;( in the female in pic 1 it is almost complete.) Likewise, the orange mark.

The forewing marginal band is as for celeno/pura.

The hindwing marginal spots forms a neat band in celeno.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/checklist%20V2/CI/index.php/start-page/startpage/showbutterfly/180

In Jamides pura the marginal band on the hindwing forms a series of domed spots quite unlike alecto/elpis.
http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JamidesPuraTenusMFUpUnAC1.jpg

This would explain the discrepancy of the uppersides as pura is very pale blue.

As I am in my hometown in NS, I do not have the bible to double check this feature.
However, I do have a strong feeling that you have found Jamides pura.

TL Seow :cheers: & Happy New Year!

I will try to get an upperside shot to confirm if it is pura.

Males have the black border a thread on the upperside right? spotted many of these caeruleans in a little patch.

thanks again for your help and happy new year!

[Psyche]

Here is a mating pair of J. celeno from Singapore.

The male on the right shows that the hindwing basal band can occasionally be dislocated in two places.
In both sexes, the marginal spots are rather flat & forms a neat band.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5029/5602410417_179df22213_b.jpg

TL Seow:cheers:

[Commander]

What about this pair, Seow? The uppersides appear very whitish blue, but I didn't take a second look, assuming it to be the usual species that we encounter. :thinking:

[MinuteMaid]

That mating pair looks rather similar to the one I posted.

Dr. Seow, I went back to the same place where I shot the mating pair. There is a colony there but every single one I observed appeared to be J. Celeno. The upperside has a border of black and the underside white striae are straight. Is there a chance that the mating pair I posted above is indeed celeno?

i also shot another Jamides that looked identical to the one i posted in picture #2. is this a male or a female? i ask because the upperside is pale blue with a thick black border.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8459949939_1a9d8240d9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8456919379_e97ce1933a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/)
The Metallic Caerulean (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr
picture taken yesterday of another specimen. same sp?

[Psyche]

What about this pair, Seow? The uppersides appear very whitish blue, but I didn't take a second look, assuming it to be the usual species that we encounter. :thinking:

A lovely shot of a pair, Khew.
It is celeno though the marginal band on the hindwing are a bit macular.
Cheers & Happy New Year.



That mating pair looks rather similar to the one I posted.

Dr. Seow, I went back to the same place where I shot the mating pair. There is a colony there but every single one I observed appeared to be J. Celeno. The upperside has a border of black and the underside white striae are straight. Is there a chance that the mating pair I posted above is indeed celeno?

i also shot another Jamides that looked identical to the one i posted in picture #2. is this a male or a female? i ask because the upperside is pale blue with a thick black border.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8459949939_1a9d8240d9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8456919379_e97ce1933a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/)
The Metallic Caerulean (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr
picture taken yesterday of another specimen. same sp?

Yes, There is a good possibility the mating pair you took is celeno given the variability of the species. However as the marginal band is highly macular (spot-like) especially the female on the right, this is worth checking.
A google search of J. celeno aelianus shows 95% of the correct images with the marginal spots flat & the other 5% slightly macular.

One exception is Federick's shot of this female with the marginal band macular & the submarginal band composed of lunulate (moon-shaped) spots.
Not sure if this is merely a variant of celeno.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0EK80AsaR7g/SzKjkX3kghI/AAAAAAAACOU/iik7O4lF8yQ/s400/DSC2121-Common-Caerulean.jpg

A pair of ssp. aelianus from Thailand.
http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JamidesCelenoAelianusMFUpUnAC1.jpg

The one you shot (untitled) is J. alecto. The clue to the ID is the upperside pale blue with thick black border.
It is a male. Note the short black palpi 3rd segments. (compare next & mating pair.)
(I am puzzled as this looks like a J. elpis male, but only the alecto male has black border on the forewing.)

The separation of elpis & alecto can be very difficult.
J. alecto is often large, but smaller individuals also occur.
All those diiferences I said before are rather inconsistent & requires a good dose of salt.
In set specimens, the forewing discal striae (inner 2) thickens more in the lower 3rd of the forewing than in elpis.
This view is largely hidden in photos.
AS you can see, Horace's bred elpis female looks almost identical to the male alecto you shot.
Here the marginal white stria of the hindwing black spot is certainly thicker than the 3rd stria from base.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yzw2AzY2du4/SuQt2UsKJ_I/AAAAAAAADm0/ES8N4VDLW88/s400/Jamides+elpis+Horace+Tan.jpg

In Singapore if you see the "barb" mark it is always alecto..
However, there are some without this mark.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MinuteMaid]

A lovely shot of a pair, Khew.
It is celeno though the marginal band on the hindwing are a bit macular.
Cheers & Happy New Year.




Yes, There is a good possibility the mating pair you took is celeno given the variability of the species. However as the marginal band is highly macular (spot-like) especially the female on the right, this is worth checking.
A google search of J. celeno aelianus shows 95% of the correct images with the marginal spots flat & the other 5% slightly macular.

One exception is Federick's shot of this female with the marginal band macular & the submarginal band composed of lunulate (moon-shaped) spots.
Not sure if this is merely a variant of celeno.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0EK80AsaR7g/SzKjkX3kghI/AAAAAAAACOU/iik7O4lF8yQ/s400/DSC2121-Common-Caerulean.jpg

A pair of ssp. aelianus from Thailand.
http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JamidesCelenoAelianusMFUpUnAC1.jpg

The one you shot (untitled) is J. alecto. The clue to the ID is the upperside pale blue with thich black border.
It is a male. Note the short black palpi 3rd segments. (compare next & mating pair.)

The separation of elpis & alecto can be very difficult.
J. alecto is often large, but smaller individuals also occur.
All those diiferences I said before are rather inconsistent & requires a good dose of salt.
In set specimens, the forewing discal striae (inner 2) thickens more in the lower 3rd of the forewing than in elpis.
This view is largely hidden in photos.
AS you can see, Horace's bred elpis female looks almost identical to the male alecto you shot.
Here the marginal white stria of the hindwing black spot is certainly thicker than the 3rd stria from base.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yzw2AzY2du4/SuQt2UsKJ_I/AAAAAAAADm0/ES8N4VDLW88/s400/Jamides+elpis+Horace+Tan.jpg

In Singapore if you see the "barb" mark it is always alecto..
However, there are some without this mark.

TL Seow:cheers:

thanks again for all the help Dr. Seow!

[Psyche]

Your untitled shot looks too much like an J. elpis male, but only the alecto male has a black border.
The male alecto usually has longer forewing with straight margin.

There are a number of pairs of sibling species in which one is commonly photographed while the other is hardly seen although not a rare species.

Jamides celeno & J pura.
Prosotas nora & pia.

The implication is that the 2nd species of the pair has been mostly mis-Id'ed as the first on the web.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MinuteMaid]

Your untitled shot looks too much like an J. elpis male, but only the alecto male has a black border.
The male alecto usually has longer forewing with straight margin.

There are a number of pairs of sibling species in which one is commonly photographed while the other is hardly seen although not a rare species.

Jamides celeno & J pura.
Prosotas nora & pia.

The implication is that the 2nd species of the pair has been mostly mis-Id'ed as the first on the web.

TL Seow:cheers:

Dr. Seow,

The untitled specimen has a border too thick to be a male. It is definitely a female. The lighter upperside color also suggests that.

It looks almost identical to the other one I posted yesterday which was IDed as J. Alecto. Both in upperside and underside.

Thus, I think both Jamides are females, and of the same species. But as of now, I'm not sure if it is elpis or alecto.

I understand it may be quite challenging to ID, considering you don't have an upperside view to see. And in most cases, the forewing is not lifted high enough to compare the striae.

[Psyche]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8459949939_1a9d8240d9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8459949939/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), on Flickr

This untitled shot looks like female but the very short palpi 3rd segment indicates male.

Male J. elpis
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yzw2AzY2du4/SuWg36vjNjI/AAAAAAAADnk/OKmTnXlkFHo/s400/Jamides-elpis-pseudelpis-01.jpg
Female J. elpis.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rzo8wjfyCsM/Swa7iEAhb8I/AAAAAAAAEcw/WBiS6NqxcHw/s1600/JE_adult_female_03.jpg



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8456919379_e97ce1933a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/)
The Metallic Caerulean (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemonteayk/8456919379/) by LemonTeaYK (http://www.flickr.com/people/lemonteayk/), o

This is a female J. alecto. The palpi are longer.
The bulging abdomen & tip confirms it.

Another female J. alecto.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6021/5945188007_06bc5ef817.jpg
A typical male J. alecto.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/checklist%20V2/CI/mugshots/Jamides%20alecto%20ageladas/Jamides%20alecto%20ageladas%20-%20Sunny.jpg

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

After looking at various images & particularly the full size image on your website, I have to say the palpi are long enough to be a female.

So it is a female and a J. alecto.

The interesting fact is the female elpis has much longer palpi than the female alecto, a very useful ID feature for differentiation of the 2 species.

TL Seow:cheers:

PS. Likewise, the palpi 3rd segment of the male elpis is longer that that of the male alecto.
Again a useful guide if you have the sexes right.