Butterfly gardening

[Lydia]

I have a small garden in which I grow both nectar and butterfly host plants. Three years ago, my sui mei was happily infested with the dendrophthoe pentandra, having been 'planted' there by a sunbird. I waited and waited and thought nothing would ever come out of it. However, a Painted Jezebel did come along and laid a bunch of eggs on it, which goes to show that often good things do come to those who wait.
Since my host plant was a young one, I knew there would not be enough leaves to feed the whole family. So I feverishly scoured the entire neighbourhood and to my great delight, found a good supply of the required leaves nearby. A roadside red mulberry tree was covered with not only one, but 2 types of tropical miseltoe, the other being macrosolen cochinchinensis. I was thus able to raise generation after generation of Painted Jezebels on the host plant from this tree
Fast forward to 1 month ago: I passed by the mulberry tree and found it had been chopped down. This is an unhappy end to not only a constant supply of leaves but also eggs, caterpillars and pupae, leaving only happy memories of my beautiful Painted Jezebel.

[Lydia]

Here is the photo of the butterfly:
http://i.imgur.com/oQ8Hd.jpg?1


You may view more pictures at the link below:
http://imgur.com/a/xiqRh

[Great Mormon]

Thats quite a number of newly eclosed PJs! Good thing that you didnt remove the mistletoe from ur sui mei, and also, now you can keep an eye out for the next generation of PJs to return :)

[Lydia]

My mistletoe died because the PJezebels kept returning to lay eggs on the leaves. I had to let the young caterpillars remain and feed on the leaves before moving them to containers with leaves taken from the tree nearby when the cats grew larger. This went on for months until my mistletoe was devoid of leaves and died.

Now my caloptropis gigantea and asclepias currasavica are heavily infested with Plain Tiger cats. However, even if all the leaves are eaten, the plants will recover. These plants seem to be much more vigorous and can sprout new leaves in a few weeks. The females then return to lay eggs again.

[Commander]

My mistletoe died because the PJezebels kept returning to lay eggs on the leaves. I had to let the young caterpillars remain and feed on the leaves before moving them to containers with leaves taken from the tree nearby when the cats grew larger. This went on for months until my mistletoe was devoid of leaves and died.

Now my caloptropis gigantea and asclepias currasavica are heavily infested with Plain Tiger cats. However, even if all the leaves are eaten, the plants will recover. These plants seem to be much more vigorous and can sprout new leaves in a few weeks. The females then return to lay eggs again.

The PJs tend to do that and in the field, I can guess that there are some batches of cats that will starve to death because there is not enough food for them. But for this batch, thanks to your intervention, they made it! :thumbsup:

If you have an oversupply of Plain Tiger cats, you can try bringing them over to the butterfly gardens at Tampines-Changkat, Pasir Ris Park or Tampines Eco Green, all of which have planted these two host plants. At the moment, they are quite plentiful there. :)

[teotp]

My mistletoe died because the PJezebels kept returning to lay eggs on the leaves. I had to let the young caterpillars remain and feed on the leaves before moving them to containers with leaves taken from the tree nearby when the cats grew larger. This went on for months until my mistletoe was devoid of leaves and died

How about rearing them with artificial diets plus stimulant (extracts from leaves)? Indeed, I am planning to collaborate with Cher Hern again to try that out after we return from Langkawi.

Teo T P

[Lydia]

I have brought my Plain Tiger caterpillars to the Orchard Rd Butterfly Trail but when I returned to check on them some time later I found that they were gone. The leaves of the host plants were pristine, without signs of having been eaten at all. This happened 2x. So, I don't leave my cats in public gardens any more. In my garden, the cats sometimes do get eaten, strangely enough, when they are big and mature. I have also seen birds, such as the yellow vented bulbul, eat the butterflies. I bring in my cats, when they are about to pupate, to my enclosure where they are safe. This morning I released 15 of them, 12 female and 3 male. The numbers will probably be in favour of the males tomorrow so it will be 50-50.

I'm very interested in the artificial diet that you mentioned. I've heard that the Monarchs can be bred on them. What exactly goes into the food?
My host plants can only support another 100 cats at most and the females keep returning to lay eggs.

[teotp]

When Khew suggested you bring your caterpillars to Tamp.-Changkat, Tamp. Eco-green or Pasir Ris Park I was wondering why he said that. Although there are many successful translocation cases but also many failure cases that never get widely publicised (Matthew et al, 2009; Thomas, 2011; Stewart, 2012; Parker, 2012). Many factors need to be considered before translocation and not done simply as an apparently easy option. Stewart (2012) provides an executive summary regarding insect translocation and a few points from him are shown below:

1. Translocation should be considered only in conjuction with other conservation measures.
2. Consult widely before deciding to attempt any translocation.
3. When attempting to maintain a population whose habitat could be damaged or destroyed by human activity, opt for translocation only as an absolute last resort.
4. Determine a clear objective for every translocation, based on an understanding of the population structure of the species concerned.
5. Understand the ecology of the species to be translocated in sufficient detail (including their host specific parasites / predators).
6. Undertake research to establish the suitability of the proposed reception site(s).
7. Select the stock to be released, according to appropriate genetic and ecological criteria.
8. Consider carefully whether the proposed activities will harm any donor population and whether evidence of a lack of harm can be provided if required.

Meantime, I will not discuss the artificial diets unless Cher Hern and I completed our experiments, but you can take a look that we took our first step and prepared the leaves extract as feeding stimulant (Thread: Paper feeding, an alternative to butterfly conservation - Blue Nawab).

Teo T P

[teotp]

My host plants can only support another 100 cats at most and the females keep returning to lay eggs.

Stand at the population ecology point of view, insects (including butterflies) have their ways to balance. Over population of one species may cause problem to others. One good example is the accidentally introduce of Papilio demoleus ssp malayanus into the Dominican Republic in 2004, and it quickly spread to the neighboring islands like Puerto Rico, Jamaica and Cuba, following the Citrus plantations everywhere (Guerrero et al, 2004; Homziak & Homziak, 2006; Garraway et al, 2009; Lauranzon Melendez et al, 2011). The introduction of the "Lime Butterfly" to the Caribbean has been speculated that it was imported for a release at wedding ceremony, by hobbyists, or it escaped from a butterfly house (Morgun & Wiemers, 2012).

Teo T P

[Commander]

When Khew suggested you bring your caterpillars to Tamp.-Changkat, Tamp. Eco-green or Pasir Ris Park I was wondering why he said that.

Teo, this has nothing to do with translocation. The Plain Tiger is a common and widespread species in Singapore. If a hobbyist needs to ensure the survival of a batch of caterpillars due to a dwindling supply of host plants, one can either :
a) go out and get more leaves of the plant and bring it back to the breeding location, or
b) bring the caterpillars to another location where the host plant can be found.

Many hobbyists and schools are already doing it across Singapore with the more common species like Lime Butterfly, Leopard Lacewing and so on. Caterpillar kits sold by Oh Farms are being "translocated" frequently as the people who breed them release the adult butterflies in other locations. This occurs also very frequently in the US, where science sites (http://www.butterfliesetc.com/caterpillar-kits)sell caterpillar kits of Monarch butterflies and Painted Lady butterflies that are "translocated" all around local communities without any reported adverse effects. Hence moving a bunch of caterpillars of a common species a few kilometers across Singapore isn't going to change things.

As the Plain Tiger is a robust species with the ability to fly long distances, there is very little impact of a "translocation" in that sense of the word. In ecology, the next generation will then continue with its breeding and without further human intervention, the natural population control will bring the numbers back to equilibrium.

It is different when we talk of translocation to mean a very local population of a species that is threatened by development, and for which the species will descend into extinction if the site is wiped out.

Hence on the current subject, the papers that you have quoted in post #8 are not totally relevant.

[Lydia]

Plain Tigers and their host plants are common in Singapore and yet I have never been successful in doing what I call "caterpillar dumping'. In desperation when the caterpillar food dwindles, I'll dump my cats any place where the host plants are found. I have also dumped the Painted Jezebels and every effort ended in failure.

In the last 10 days, more than 70 Plain Tigers eclosed. They seem to love the rain and are waterproof.

[Painted Jezebel]

I have also dumped the Painted Jezebels

I object to being 'dumped'.:grin2:

[teotp]

Teo, this has nothing to do with translocation. The Plain Tiger is a common and widespread species in Singapore. If a hobbyist needs to ensure the survival of a batch of caterpillars due to a dwindling supply of host plants, one can either :
a) go out and get more leaves of the plant and bring it back to the breeding location, or
b) bring the caterpillars to another location where the host plant can be found.

Many hobbyists and schools are already doing it across Singapore with the more common species like Lime Butterfly, Leopard Lacewing and so on. Caterpillar kits sold by Oh Farms are being "translocated" frequently as the people who breed them release the adult butterflies in other locations. This occurs also very frequently in the US, where science sites (http://www.butterfliesetc.com/caterpillar-kits)sell caterpillar kits of Monarch butterflies and Painted Lady butterflies that are "translocated" all around local communities without any reported adverse effects. Hence moving a bunch of caterpillars of a common species a few kilometers across Singapore isn't going to change things.

As the Plain Tiger is a robust species with the ability to fly long distances, there is very little impact of a "translocation" in that sense of the word. In ecology, the next generation will then continue with its breeding and without further human intervention, the natural population control will bring the numbers back to equilibrium.

It is different when we talk of translocation to mean a very local population of a species that is threatened by development, and for which the species will descend into extinction if the site is wiped out.

Hence on the current subject, the papers that you have quoted in post #8 are not totally relevant.

In the first place, I should have used "translocation" or transfer to a new location instead of translocation. Sorry.
Translocation may not due to threatened by development or land use. Climate change is causing many butterflies to migrate to track climatecally-suitable habitat. In many cases, this will happen naturally but in others, human intervention may be necessary in the form of "assisted colonisation" (Carroll et al, 2009).

We do not know these Plain Tiger disperse from where (may be from X location to Tamp-Changkat, Tamp Eco-green or Pasir Ris Park) and due to what, to seek for new locations or other reasons? Lydia's place may be an intermediate location? Besides, they may also seeking new stock to prevent inbreeding problem. Singapore is a very small island as compare to the United States, our population of Plain Tiger to the Monarch butterflies too. The release of butterflies from breeding kits in the US and Singapore (from schools, hobbyists and farm) are different, we are recycling our small colony again and again. Today, we do not have any problem but who knows few years later or longer, the inbreeding problem may occur and our Plain Tiger colony may getting smaller and smaller?

My concern is whether putting back our stock (this is what I meant "local translocation") will create inbreeding or not, instead letting them "free movement" to a suitable place (may be Sumatra, Borneo...)? If Lydia's caterpillars are from other sources? Are they carrying any pathogens and will they affect our local colonies or other species? Although the #8 points may not all relevant to this thread, but some of them may be useful to local breeders, hobbyists or schools for their reference if they want to "translocate" a species from other country to Singapore or move from one location to another.

Teo T P

[Commander]

Thanks for your views, Teo. Do you have any reference papers that are relevant to the South East Asian butterfly fauna, by these authors? This is because when we look at butterfly biology, species that are beyond our borders tend to have different characteristics, e.g. ability to overwinter, strong (and regular) migratory tendencies, etc. Any literature regarding the species being discussed - i.e. Plain Tiger and Painted Jezebel, on the effects of translocation and/or inbreeding experiments?

Also, the Plain Tiger population has been in Singapore for many years before. Again, when we discuss translocation or genetic deterioration due to inbreeding, different species/genera/families have difference characteristics. At Oh' Farms, the observations recorded for different species also vary. Whereas the Blue Pansy tends not to last beyond two to three generations in an enclosed environment, the Leopard Lacewing and Plain Tiger appears to be able to withstand longer in-breeding. An earlier experiment with the Taiwanese Tree Nymph lasted 5 generations from what I was told. And this is a good yardstick species, as there is quite definitely no external factors like new genetic stock coming in to change the equation in a controlled enclosure.

This led me to hypothesise that quite possibly, certain subfamilies like Danainae or Heliconiinae have other mechanisms to delay the imminence of self-destruction due to in-breeding, whilst others like the Nymphalinae do not have that endurance. Another observation could be that the species that display aposematic colouration may be less susceptible to the effects of in-breeding in a controlled environment. I don't think anyone has studied the Painted Jezebel in such a manner (perhaps due to the lack of a reliable supply of host plants). But that could shed some light on the matter.

Out in the wild, I am less concerned that any form of human intervention or the "dumping" of these species via human intervention is going to cause any serious ecological damage to the species - with specific reference to the common ones. In the free-ranging environment, I believe that there would be enough genetic stock flying around to prevent any sort of in-breeding. Given our observations of the immigration of new species from the north, I am quite sure that species like the Plain Tiger would continuously also come in from the Malaysian front (or as you suggest, even coming the opposite way from Sumatra and Borneo, instead of the other way around) and to add to the gene pool.

On the optimistic side of the coin, the opposite may happen where human intervention in "translocation" may actually help to mitigate in-breeding by introducing new genetic stock to a very local population of the species!

To me, I don't believe that there is any significant harm to the butterfly population (with respect to the common species), if people are moving caterpillars or adult butterflies to locations beyond their original "birthplace". Even if we object, it is already happening all around us. So there is very little that we can do. From personal websites to FaceBook, I can gather that there are enthusiasts and individuals like Lydia who breed caterpillars and free the butterflies, either "locally" or "translocate" them.

You may also want to consider where the Plain Tigers at Tampines-Changkat Butterfly Garden came from in the first place! :)

[teotp]

Thanks for your views, Teo. Do you have any reference papers that are relevant to the South East Asian butterfly fauna, by these authors? This is because when we look at butterfly biology, species that are beyond our borders tend to have different characteristics, e.g. ability to overwinter, strong (and regular) migratory tendencies, etc. Any literature regarding the species being discussed - i.e. Plain Tiger and Painted Jezebel, on the effects of translocation and/or inbreeding experiments?

Also, the Plain Tiger population has been in Singapore for many years before. Again, when we discuss translocation or genetic deterioration due to inbreeding, different species/genera/families have difference characteristics. At Oh' Farms, the observations recorded for different species also vary. Whereas the Blue Pansy tends not to last beyond two to three generations in an enclosed environment, the Leopard Lacewing and Plain Tiger appears to be able to withstand longer in-breeding. An earlier experiment with the Taiwanese Tree Nymph lasted 5 generations from what I was told. And this is a good yardstick species, as there is quite definitely no external factors like new genetic stock coming in to change the equation in a controlled enclosure.

This led me to hypothesise that quite possibly, certain subfamilies like Danainae or Heliconiinae have other mechanisms to delay the imminence of self-destruction due to in-breeding, whilst others like the Nymphalinae do not have that endurance. Another observation could be that the species that display aposematic colouration may be less susceptible to the effects of in-breeding in a controlled environment. I don't think anyone has studied the Painted Jezebel in such a manner (perhaps due to the lack of a reliable supply of host plants). But that could shed some light on the matter.

Out in the wild, I am less concerned that any form of human intervention or the "dumping" of these species via human intervention is going to cause any serious ecological damage to the species - with specific reference to the common ones. In the free-ranging environment, I believe that there would be enough genetic stock flying around to prevent any sort of in-breeding. Given our observations of the immigration of new species from the north, I am quite sure that species like the Plain Tiger would continuously also come in from the Malaysian front (or as you suggest, even coming the opposite way from Sumatra and Borneo, instead of the other way around) and to add to the gene pool.

On the optimistic side of the coin, the opposite may happen where human intervention in "translocation" may actually help to mitigate in-breeding by introducing new genetic stock to a very local population of the species!

To me, I don't believe that there is any significant harm to the butterfly population (with respect to the common species), if people are moving caterpillars or adult butterflies to locations beyond their original "birthplace". Even if we object, it is already happening all around us. So there is very little that we can do. From personal websites to FaceBook, I can gather that there are enthusiasts and individuals like Lydia who breed caterpillars and free the butterflies, either "locally" or "translocate" them.

You may also want to consider where the Plain Tigers at Tampines-Changkat Butterfly Garden came from in the first place! :)

I have not come across any article regarding translocation / inbreeding depression of SEA butterflies by these or other authors. Most of the research papers about inbreeding are conducted using Drosophila species due to their short life cycles.

Yes, different species have different rates at which recessive deleterious alleles become homozygous removed by selection are not the same. Besides, inbreeding also affected by fluctuation of temperatures, resources of feed, rainfall and method of husbandry. Most of the inbreeding depression experiments have concentrated on captive-bred wild species because of the obvious difficulties of making estimates on wild species in nature. Inbreeding depression will be higher in the wild than in captivity (Crnokrak & Roff, 1998). The evidence of inbreeding depression may observed from fitness components of butterfly (e.g. number of eggs laid and the hatching rate, number of life cycles, survival of larvae as well as population, size of insect..etc) (Crnokrak & Roff, 1998; Keller & Waller, 2002; Joron & Brakefield, 2003; Saccheri et al, 2005). I have no comment on the Plain Tiger, Painted Jezebel, Blue Pansy... because I haven't conducted any inbreeding experiments and investigations of these species.

Our natural populations of butterflies may be all right at present moment (without testing them), but if one incidence that a problem species (e.g. causes inbreeding, carrier of pathogen) is introduced and we may have to pay a very high cost to solve it and provided it can be solved. Just like the "Lime Butterfly" in the Carribean which causes the pest disease in their Citrus plantations. I have to switch on the alarm because we have to sustain our local butterfly diversity in good conditions regardless of conservation but also for other use.

Teo T P

[Commander]

Thanks for all your research, Teo. My point is that we have very few relevant papers written on local species and most of the research are done by foreigners on foreign species. Whilst there may be some relevance in some situations, I cannot conclude that all this research can directly apply to our local butterfly fauna and in our climate. The "Lime Butterfly" example in the Caribbean is of little relevance to Singapore, as we are not an agricultural country. Even if residents' Citrus bushes are infested with caterpillars, no one really bothers and if they do, residents will end up spraying pesticides that would do more harm to the butterfly fauna than good.

Quoting all these research papers may be useful in scientific discussions, but I'd say that the majority of our readers here do not have access to such work, and even if they do, the scientific jargon and details mean very little to them - if anyone bothers to read and understand in the first place.

I acknowledge what you are saying, and in simple English, you are trying to warn everyone here "Not to mess with nature and leave things as they are".

But my own position is that having people like Lydia who spends her time breeding and "dumping" butterflies and caterpillars to help them survive here in Singapore is far better than having people who shun caterpillars and spray insecticides to get rid of all of them!

BC does not claim to be an ecological police :police: who can do anything even if enthusiasts choose to breed and spread butterflies around thru' their intervention. Even if we "sound the alarm", there is little that we can do. Perhaps you may have ideas that would make your effort more effective and people will listen to us. I'm quite sure the authorities like NParks, AVA or NEA would laugh at us, as it's not a crime to "dump" caterpillars around.

So I'll end my part of this discussion by making a closing remark that I would encourage enthusiasts like Lydia to carry on doing what they are doing, as I believe that butterflies are tenacious enough to survive any such threats as mentioned by those researchers. It is far better situation rather than having Lydia going around with a spray can full of Malathion and killing all the caterpillars in her garden! :)

[teotp]

Thanks for all your research, Teo. My point is that we have very few relevant papers written on local species and most of the research are done by foreigners on foreign species. Whilst there may be some relevance in some situations, I cannot conclude that all this research can directly apply to our local butterfly fauna and in our climate. The "Lime Butterfly" example in the Caribbean is of little relevance to Singapore, as we are not an agricultural country. Even if residents' Citrus bushes are infested with caterpillars, no one really bothers and if they do, residents will end up spraying pesticides that would do more harm to the butterfly fauna than good.

Quoting all these research papers may be useful in scientific discussions, but I'd say that the majority of our readers here do not have access to such work, and even if they do, the scientific jargon and details mean very little to them - if anyone bothers to read and understand in the first place.

I acknowledge what you are saying, and in simple English, you are trying to warn everyone here "Not to mess with nature and leave things as they are".

But my own position is that having people like Lydia who spends her time breeding and "dumping" butterflies and caterpillars to help them survive here in Singapore is far better than having people who shun caterpillars and spray insecticides to get rid of all of them!

BC does not claim to be an ecological police :police: who can do anything even if enthusiasts choose to breed and spread butterflies around thru' their intervention. Even if we "sound the alarm", there is little that we can do. Perhaps you may have ideas that would make your effort more effective and people will listen to us. I'm quite sure the authorities like NParks, AVA or NEA would laugh at us, as it's not a crime to "dump" caterpillars around.

So I'll end my part of this discussion by making a closing remark that I would encourage enthusiasts like Lydia to carry on doing what they are doing, as I believe that butterflies are tenacious enough to survive any such threats as mentioned by those researchers. It is far better situation rather than having Lydia going around with a spray can full of Malathion and killing all the caterpillars in her garden! :)

I just quoted the recent "Lime Butterfly" example and there are reports on butterfly metapopulation gone extinction due to inbreeding but not in SEA, as you asked me about SEA Plain Tiger and PJ, so I have not mentioned it. Local researchers may not interested in studying butterfly ecology, also fund, manpower and time may be other reasons that put them off.

I already play my role that "Translocations will create unnatural communties". As you mentioned, most of the BC members are not interested in scientific discussions and in future I will not quote any research article and also don't have to spend my time and effort to send it to them.

I agree that we cann't stop people doing anything about butterfly breeding, "dumping" and so on. Lydia and you are butterfly (nature) lovers, at least saving many lives and preventing them being kill :thumbsup: .

Teo T P

[Commander]

Yes, it's unfortunate that when I searched the NUS archives for papers on butterflies, many of the papers are mostly related to conservation ecology, and those few that make any sense are rarely of the quality that some of the western researchers produce. Research into biodiversity subjects are probably not lucrative enough for our society here in Singapore, and if you look at the tertiary institutions, there are hardly any butterfly researchers of repute locally. Perhaps you should take this up in your retirement time. :) It will certainly fill up some of the gaps in butterfly research in Singapore or even ASEAN.

You're right to say that the majority of the known butterfly enthusiasts in the local scene are not scientists, nor have the intention and interest to pursue the subject at that level. In fact, when Les goes off on his butterfly Latin names, there are often quizzical looks from our members here. :bsmile: So the debate of common English names is often raised when we want to encourage more members to take an interest in butterflies. At least we won't scare away too many with scientific names.

Keep the scientific references to the few of us who appreciate the papers. As you have a strong background in the life sciences, you are the best person for BC members to turn to, if they have more than a general interest in various subjects. Otherwise, we'll let everyone enjoy butterflies in a more hobbyist environment.

The setting up of BC is to help promote butterfly conservation in an amateurish way. Hopefully, the awareness about butterflies, caterpillars and plants will go a slightly longer way to help people understand and appreciate them, rather than kill them with pesticides.

To me, translocation projects is a last resort. There are sites where we tried but failed. When impending development threatens the site, the foreseeable future may be the extinction of the species in Singapore. Rather than petition and protest like some other well-known societies, people like Sunny, Federick and other members here tried to do something to save the species. To date, I have not seen the No-Brand Grass Yellow for a long time now, after their last stand at Punggol was developed. The Harlequin and Pitcher Blue sites will go in a matter of time.

Translocation, in your context, may create "unnatural communities". I would rather have extant "unnatural communities" in Singapore, than to have no community at all!

[Painted Jezebel]

This has been a most interesting discussion.

The emphasis has been on PJs and the Plain Tiger. However, I would like to mention three others (all Heliconiinae), two of which are already relevant to Singapore, and the other may become so in the future.

The Tawny Coster and Leopard Lacewing have, since about 1980 made their individual ways south through the peninsular and are now common in Singapore. This appears to have been a natural movement caused by human development and the subsequent rise in amount of their hostplant which is a common weed of disturbed habitats (Passiflora foetida).

The Julia Butterfly (Dryas iulia) however has not been a natural mover. How it came to the peninsular is not currently known, but as it's home is in C & S America, it is not a SEA native. Unfortunately, it uses the same hostplant as the other two species, and I have noticed, here on Samui, that numbers of both the former species have reduced considerably since 2007, when the last named was first found here, whilst the Julia is now being found in ever increasing numbers. It is moving south, has already reached the far north of Malaysia, and may, eventually reach Singapore.

Lydia's 'translocation' causes no problems to me, as they are of already existing species, and their survival will depend on sufficient hostplant and a wide enough gene pool (if released in only a small pocket). The introduction of species which have no right to be there is a completely different matter, and should be discouraged, and, I believe, in many places is actually illegal.

[teotp]

Yes, it's unfortunate that when I searched the NUS archives for papers on butterflies, many of the papers are mostly related to conservation ecology, and those few that make any sense are rarely of the quality that some of the western researchers produce. Research into biodiversity subjects are probably not lucrative enough for our society here in Singapore, and if you look at the tertiary institutions, there are hardly any butterfly researchers of repute locally. Perhaps you should take this up in your retirement time. :) It will certainly fill up some of the gaps in butterfly research in Singapore or even ASEAN.

You're right to say that the majority of the known butterfly enthusiasts in the local scene are not scientists, nor have the intention and interest to pursue the subject at that level. In fact, when Les goes off on his butterfly Latin names, there are often quizzical looks from our members here. :bsmile: So the debate of common English names is often raised when we want to encourage more members to take an interest in butterflies. At least we won't scare away too many with scientific names.

Keep the scientific references to the few of us who appreciate the papers. As you have a strong background in the life sciences, you are the best person for BC members to turn to, if they have more than a general interest in various subjects. Otherwise, we'll let everyone enjoy butterflies in a more hobbyist environment.

The setting up of BC is to help promote butterfly conservation in an amateurish way. Hopefully, the awareness about butterflies, caterpillars and plants will go a slightly longer way to help people understand and appreciate them, rather than kill them with pesticides.

To me, translocation projects is a last resort. There are sites where we tried but failed. When impending development threatens the site, the foreseeable future may be the extinction of the species in Singapore. Rather than petition and protest like some other well-known societies, people like Sunny, Federick and other members here tried to do something to save the species. To date, I have not seen the No-Brand Grass Yellow for a long time now, after their last stand at Punggol was developed. The Harlequin and Pitcher Blue sites will go in a matter of time.

Translocation, in your context, may create "unnatural communities". I would rather have extant "unnatural communities" in Singapore, than to have no community at all!

NUS archives don't have those articles you are looking for is normal, otherwise they wouldn't had to paid such a high subscriptions for all the journals/periodicals and allow everyone just simply access them online. Talking about my retirement time, there are other things equally important to me and butterflies is only part of it. Carry out research works require funds, time, planning and also manpower as I mentioned earlier. In Singapore, funds allocated for research work always prioritise to encomonic development and productivity. Research work is not just simply carry out a few experiments.

I didn't said majority of the local butterfly enthusiasts and BC members are not scientists, otherwise I will not sent them scientific articles. Is you mentioned that most of them are not interested in scientific discussions. I took a dim view of what you mentioned about "scientific discussions". I will not quote and send out scientific articles regardless of whether anybody appreciate it or not, unless the person request for it is able to convince me with good reasons. I don't have to provide such a service (time, effort and money) and deliver them to their doorsteps.

I also don't have the right to comment on Sunny, Federick and other members' "translocation" experiments because I have not involved and totally not know how they planned and carried out their trials, besides, I already put a fullstop for the "translocation" argument and will not discuss it further. If not, you will say I bring it to scientific discussions again.

Teo T P

[Commander]

Teo, it is a great pity that this discussion that started with Lydia's layman request for help to feed her hungry caterpillars has taken such a turn.

When I suggested that you should do research and write papers, it was with my sincere respect of your wealth of scientific knowledge and ability in the field to do so - more than anyone else on this forum. It wasn't a provocation nor an insult to you. As a retired person with relevant background, you are best placed to share your knowledge in a wider sense.

If you take a dim or whatever view of my comments about a "scientific discussion" that is your prerogative. But it is your totally judgemental view and I have a right to my own opinion.

Remember you started by asking "why I said that" in reply to Lydia's post. I stated my position and stand by it. I get requests from amatuer breeders on a regular basis when they run out of host plants. I will continue to advise them to either find the host plant, or bring their cats to another place where the host plant is available. It is a far better option than let the cats starve to death!

You may have your concerns about the ecology and I acknowledge that. But I don't have to agree with your opinion as you don't have to agree with mine.

If you want to help educate other BC members with your scientific background and knowledge, kindly go ahead. No one is stopping you from doing so, if they ask. In fact I applaud you for that.

So, there is no further point to carry this online discussion as it has deteriorated into something too personal and of no benefit to BC.

If you want to continue offline with me, I will be happy to do so. Let us not bring our egos into the forum as it will just end with nothing of use to anyone here.

You brought me into the discussion first, and I will henceforth close this discussion thread before it degenerates further. I believe Lydia would know which direction to take now, after she has hears our views.

Thanks for your time and effort.

*Thread Closed*