Help with Hesperiid please

[MrGee]

I have seen this butterfly on several occasions. I believe the 3 photos included are all of the same species, though all taken on different days.

Even with the help of Les, I have no idea what it is.

Any help most welcome.

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/butterflies/pics/Hesperiidae%20unknown%20J1.JPG

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/butterflies/pics/Hesperiidae%20unknown%20J3.JPG

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/butterflies/pics/Hesperiidae%20unknown%20J4.JPG

Many thanks

[Psyche]

It is necessary to eliminate this being a species not found in Malaysia.
A check & cross-checking from the Yutaka website and Google search shows most of the 'outside' genera/species can be ruled out.
There are still 1 or 2 genera which I have no image to check.

Assuming this is a species that is also found in Malaysia, than the only candidate I can find is Isma protoclea.

This should be of the right size, neither too big or too small.
Its underside is brown with a purple wash and sparsely overlaid with pale grey scales.
With strong flash the pale grey becomes white as in pic 2.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

I don't know if this matters but pic 2 was not taken with flash, but it was taken with high ISO (1600) in fairly poor light conditions.

[Psyche]

The extra whiteness may be due to the angle of incidence of the light on the wings and perhaps coupled with the high ISO.

From the abdominal tip, pic 1 is a male, and pic 3 is a female.

I don't think this is an Isma spp. because the two palpi third segment are large and long, sticking out of the head like flagpoles.

We will need to look for a genus with this feature first, and then work from there.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

Correction. I think pic 1 is also a female. The above down angle makes it hard to tell.
I enclose 2 pics which if I am not wrong are Isma iapis male.
http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132544829/original.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132544830

It is hard to tell if the palpi are long like in your pics.

However, look at the face. It is similar, being white with a black line near the eye.

If not for the uncertainty of the palpi, I would say your 3 pics are Isma protoclea obscura females.

I. protoclea is either extremely rare or extinct in Singapore, so no one have a shot of it yet.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Seow, I understand where you are coming from, but, when using the keys in C&P4, the first key in the Plastingia group (page 358), says palpi third segment long and protuding, as in Gee's photos. Isma species do not conform to this. This is part of my problem in getting anywhere close to an ID for these photos.

I am sure there is something obvious that I am missing, but, for the life of me, I can't see it!!!!!

[Psyche]

Seow, I understand where you are coming from, but, when using the keys in C&P4, the first key in the Plastingia group (page 358), says palpi third segment long and protuding, as in Gee's photos. Isma species do not conform to this. This is part of my problem in getting anywhere close to an ID for these photos.

I am sure there is something obvious that I am missing, but, for the life of me, I can't see it!!!!!

I had already implied that it can not be Isma because of the palpi in post 4, but having checked out for any extra-Malayan spp. of Arnetta, Suada and Lotongus(line 10 of the key), I am wondering if there is an exception here.
Have also ruled out spp. of Iambrix & Idmon which are long-palpied.
Since iapis & protoclea are very closely related they would have similar features. Closeup pics of any other Isma spp. will also be desirable .

If not, then it could not be any member of the Plastingia group, and we will have to look elsewhere.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

It is hard to tell if the palpi are long like in your pics.

However, look at the face. It is similar, being white with a black line near the eye.

I agree it is hard to tell about the palpi on the first photo you posted but palpi on the second look significantly different to on my photos.

I see what you are saying about the face but it just doesn't look right to me. For example, the eyes seem to be proportionally larger in the Isma iapis photos than in my photos.

Also, but this could just be due to the angle of shots or the position of the butterfly, the wing shape/position seems much more elongated in the specimens in my photos. However, there is a distinct lack of photos of Isma spp to compare against (apart from the two you posted).

[Psyche]

After thinking over, I would say Les is right. Even if this is an exception, such prominent palpi would rate a mention in C&P4 (BMP ), and so we can drop Isma as a possibility.

This narrowed down the field considerably. Of those with long palpi left Suada swerga is one with a lot of white on the underside of the hindwing. It also have distinct races according to C&P4. Here is a pic of it no. 4.
http://www.butterflycircle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=98052

If you were to scale down the amount of white, it will resembles your pic closely.

So, could this be a form of S. swerga, or another new species found in North & central Vietnam, S. albolineata.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

If you were to scale down the amount of white, it will resembles your pic closely.

So, could this be a form of S. swerga, or another new species found in North & central Vietnam, S. albolineata.

It certainly does resemble my pictures closely :-)

I can find no other pictures of it or any of S. albolineata.

[Psyche]

The resemblance is very close.

If you look at your pic 2 which have the forewing spots better exposed, the two main spots one small & a bigger one below, matches perfectly. Also the dark shading around the spots.

As a matter of fact there are no option left.
The other long palpied genera are
Arnetta -no match.
Scobura- prominent spots on hindwing.
Suastus - black spots on hindwing.
Oerane - dark brown. no spot on forewing .
Lotongus - banded or otherwise.

Halpe Group - spotted or variously marked, no long palpi forms.

Ancistroides Group, Iambrix, Idmon & Koruthaialos no match.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

So, are you saying it is Suada swerga, or could it be S. albolineata?

[Painted Jezebel]

I think that Suada sp. is a good call, the forewing shape is good.

I have never seen the new (2000) species, so I can not say for sure. If it is this genus, then I think this may be an extension of its known range (either species). As far as I am aware, S. swerga has not been found east of Nakhon Nayok or Chonburi provinces. However, without an actual specimen, the exact ID will probably remain a matter of educated suggestions.

[Psyche]

:)
So, are you saying it is Suada swerga, or could it be S. albolineata?

Both species are recorded in Vietnam, so they would be found in your area.

However, look at the name albolineata. It means white-lined.

Among skippers white lines that cut across the veins are hardly seen. I can only think of Hasora, although white bands are not uncommon, and coloured veins can be common.

With Suada & related genera Scobura, Suastus even bands are not known.

The name albolineata likely referred to the streaky white veins in your skipper. This would be to distinguish it from the closely related S. swerga.
There is thus a very high probability your skipper is this species.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

Thank you, Seow and Les, so much for your efforts on this one.

I think, from what you are saying, it is best for me to label this as Suada albolineata but with a note that this is not 100% certain.

Les, maybe you will see one in the flesh when you next visit Rainbow Lodge ;-)

[Psyche]

You certainly could labelled it Suada albolineata with a query.

A great joint effort. Without inputs from everyone, the discussion would have bogged down at Isma.

And a great thanks to Martin for that only available profile shot of S. swerga. Without that single pic. for comparison, we would probably still be scratching our heads bald.

TL Seow:cheers:

[MrGee]

Sorry, yes, thanks to Martin, too.

[kaleshs2002in]

Sauda sps, probably.
cheers!

[MrGee]

I finally have an upperwing shot

http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/butterflies/pics/Suada albolineata 7.JPG

[Psyche]

The spotting and the two-toned forewing underside pretty well confirmed the ID.

TL Seow:cheers: