Are these all Horaga syrinx?

[Painted Jezebel]

I am currently working on the detailed pages of the Lycaenidae for my website. Here are three different undersides of specimens which I have in my Horaga syrinx file. I think I have them right, but I am not sure. Can anyone help?

[Commander]

This genus is one that we also had some lingering doubts about on the Singapore front. I suspect that we have shots of H. onyx sardonyx, but without specimens, the confirmation of the ID remains elusive.

When we thought that we had quite confidently nailed the IDs, a mating pair that had rather different appearance in the male/female threw an earlier theory out the window. Needs a bit more scrutiny of the upperside as well as male/female before we can definitively claim that H. onyx exists in Singapore.

Or, alternatively, Horace comes across the early stages. :)

Until then, it would be an interesting discussion to see what you have over there on Samui.

[Psyche]

The first two appears to be variations of H. syrinx, 1st is female, 2nd is male.

The 3rd I strongly suspect to be H. onyx because of the shape , the more angled position and the deeper notches on the outer margin of the forewing 'spot'.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

I did a comparison of H. syrinx & H. onyx and these are the results.

H. syrinx
Forewing white band usually narrow and usually not strongly notched at outer margin.
Spot or band tend to be upright (additional clue)
Hindwing width between termen and white band narrower than that on the forewing, but may be roughly equal.
Ground colour more ochreous (with a yellowish tone ).(additional clue from C&P4)

H. onyx
Forewing white band broad & strongly notched , sometimes at 2 points.
Spot/band tends to be angled inwards (additional clue)
Hindwing width between termen & white band wider than that on the forewing.
Ground colour browner (additional clue)

I don't know how consistent these criteria are.
I would say 1 & 2 are H. syrinx and 3 is H. onyx.

I seem to come across Federick pic very often. Here is one I think is H. onyxhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/federickho/1048291241/

(Addendum: I am now convinced 1 & 2 are H. syrinx, and 3 is H. onyx.)

TL Seow:cheers:

[Psyche]

Pic 2 had always bugged me because the hindwing looked so different. Now I know what it is.
Pic 2 is Horaga albimacula.

The differences of the 2 (albimacula & chalcedonyx) from H. syrinx/onyx are:
1. Hindwing discal band linear, narrow and less white than the forewing spot.
2. Hindwing marginal white line ends at vein 6 ( at vein 7 in syrinx/onyx.).
3. Fore-leg mostly white .(banded black & white as the rest in syrinx/onyx.)

In the 70s. both albimacula & chalcedonyx were thought to be one species under the name H. albimacula.
By chance Fleming's L324 labelled H. albimacula happened to be H. chalcedonyx. This is indicated in C&P4's checklist page 423 in the entry for H. chalcedonyx.

Thus by a fortuitous circumstance, I have the undersides of both albimacula( C&P4 pl 45/24 ) and chalcedonyx(Fleming L324) for comparison.

The differences between the two.
In chalcedonyx the forewing white spot is elongated, extending broadly into space 1b, whereas in albimacula it appears short, being constricted and obsolete in space 1b.
In chalcedonyx there is a large black submarginal spot or smudge in space 5 which is absent in albimacula.
The hindwing discal band cannot be used to differentiate these two.

I also happened to come across a beautiful pic. of H. chalcedonyx by Sunny in the early days.
http://s433.photobucket.com/albums/qq58/scarefree/?action=view&current=196-6-Horaga-syrinx-maenala-Ambon-O.jpg&mediafilter=images

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Before I open yet another bottle of Champagne, can I just confirm:
1) H. syrinx
2) H. albimacula
3) H. onyx.

H. albimacula has not been found, as far as I am aware, in Thailand before. A ssp. H. a. viola has been found in Laos, but I would suspect that this should be H. a. albistigmata as most species I have here are of Sundanian origin. I think I will need some upperside shots for reference purposes!

[Angiud]

Being close to Samui, I'll put the 2 Onyx I have in my file:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6005/6014999420_68873865b6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/angiud/6014999420/)
The Ambon Onyx (http://www.flickr.com/photos/angiud/6014999420/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2316/5744276663_c9be6dfa69.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/angiud/5744276663/)
Lycaenidae (http://www.flickr.com/photos/angiud/5744276663/)


Mmmm, they looks a bit different to me.

[Psyche]

Before I open yet another bottle of Champagne, can I just confirm:
1) H. syrinx
2) H. albimacula
3) H. onyx.

H. albimacula has not been found, as far as I am aware, in Thailand before. A ssp. H. a. viola has been found in Laos, but I would suspect that this should be H. a. albistigmata as most species I have here are of Sundanian origin. I think I will need some upperside shots for reference purposes!

Yes. They are correct.


Being close to Samui, I'll put the 2 Onyx I have in my file:
Mmmm, they looks a bit different to me.

Your first is H. onyx male. Note fat strongly angulated and notched forewing spot. the tornal band which is a continuation of the main discal band is typically long & straight in H. onyx.(not in Les' example here.);marginal brown area on the hindwing is wider than that on the forewing.(the reverse for H. syrinx.)

The 2nd is H. albimacula female. Note fat forewing spot, white fore-leg; there is an extra submarginal spot in space 5, but not the black smudge in chalcedonyx.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks so very much, Seow. I'll leave the Champagne until Monday, when, weather permitting, I'm meeting up with Antonio on KP.

Two new species to add to the list, now up to 323! Come on guys, I'm moving ahead again!!!!:grin2:

[Psyche]

Thanks so very much, Seow. I'll leave the Champagne until Monday, when, weather permitting, I'm meeting up with Antonio on KP.

Two new species to add to the list, now up to 323! Come on guys, I'm moving ahead again!!!!:grin2:

I am really surprised that H. albimacula has not been recorded in Thailand, despite a range from India all the way to Sumbawa in the Lesser Sundas.
This is something special and exciting.:cheers: :cheers: :jumjoy:

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

I am really surprised that H. albimacula has not been recorded in Thailand, despite a range from India all the way to Sumbawa in the Lesser Sundas.
This is something special and exciting.:cheers: :cheers: :jumjoy:

TL Seow:cheers:

Thanks, I do seem to be having a special and exciting week. I hope it continues today, as I am now off to the forest.

I must also remember to get my Doctor something. He is the one who rekindled my enthusiasm!

[Painted Jezebel]

Sorry, Seow, I am a bit confused. In an earlier post you stated..
'In chalcedonyx there is a large black submarginal spot or smudge in space 5 which is absent in albimacula.'

but then you say for H. albimacula..
'there is an extra submarginal spot in space 5, but not the black smudge in chalcedonyx.'

[Angiud]

The 2nd is H. albimacula female. Note fat forewing spot, white fore-leg; there is an extra submarginal spot in space 5, but not the black smudge in chalcedonyx.

TL Seow:cheers:

Thank you, Psyche, for the always king and exact identification. Happy to see I have one more Lycaenidae and one more correction to do.:bsmile:


Thanks so very much, Seow. I'll leave the Champagne until Monday, when, weather permitting, I'm meeting up with Antonio on KP.

Two new species to add to the list, now up to 323! Come on guys, I'm moving ahead again!!!!

I hope to find something new too from now to Monday :whistle:

[Psyche]

Sorry, Seow, I am a bit confused. In an earlier post you stated..
'In chalcedonyx there is a large black submarginal spot or smudge in space 5 which is absent in albimacula.'

but then you say for H. albimacula..
'there is an extra submarginal spot in space 5, but not the black smudge in chalcedonyx.'

I am probably confusing myself a bit too.

When I made the earlier statement I based the H. chacedonyx description on the 2 valid examples Of the local race I could find ie. Fleming's L324 & Sunny's pic.
In place of a submarginal spot in space 5 there is a big black smudge. (essentially a poorly formed spot.)
In H. albimacula, C&P4 and examples from HK ?Taiwan on the net do not show the black smudge or spot there.
This includes your pic.

Suddenly Antonio shows an example of H. albimacula with a well-formed black spot ringed with green in space 5. Note the forewing spot with its constriction at the lower end in space 1b indicate it is H. albimacula.

I just don't know if all examples of H. chalcedonyx will only have a black smudge there or some may have it as a well-formed spot in space 5.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks, Seow.

Now, how do I gently inform Pisuth that his new edition is out of date already!!!! (If he does not list it, and I do not think he does).

[Angiud]

Now, how do I gently inform Pisuth that his new edition is out of date already!!!! (If he does not list it, and I do not think he does).

:bsmile: :bsmile:

The editor has just confirmed to me that he would like to make it available to launch the book at “the Baan Lae Suan Fair 2011, during Saturday 29th October 2011 to Sunday 6th November 2011″.

From Pisuth Ek-Amnuay website.

I'm very curious and excited to finally see this new book!! ;P

[Painted Jezebel]

Antonio has sent me another photo which looks like Horaga albimaculata. However, it appears to be lacking either a spot or smudge in hindwing cell 5.

Photo reproduced here with Antonio's permission.

I have a distinct feeling that until a specimen is collected, it will remain only a probability.

[Psyche]

It is H. albimacula.

The spot or smudge in space 5 is mainly to differentiate albimacula & chacedonyx. The big white spot on the forewing is also in favour of albimacula.
Most albimacula have space 5 clear.
It is not uncommon in Hongkong and Taiwan and there are many pics on the net.

The white forelegs are very diagnostic of these 2 sibling species.
They can be seen in all valid pics of albimacula on the net.
From Taiwan
http://tolweb.org/onlinecontributors/app;jsessionid=CEDCD99E27EC738C103C062D5C6CB1F8?pa ge=ViewImageData&service=external&sp=46506

Two from Hongkong.

(Correction this first series is actually H. onyx.)
http://gbear.myphotos.cc/butterfly/displayimage.php?album=227&pos=3

This is correctly H. albimacula.
http://8c0vqg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pivM2oxjrjsstTqh9NVZC6Cy7UhNBH7kidmDzgdSTgI6OhM8 bVniTC8POP0I8eVegx0pT-WfhD9RagIBIt7VAR2mgkaz-16A0/IMG_3537.JPG?psid=1
HKLS website pics.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=%22horaga+albimacula%22&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=488&tbm=isch&tbnid=tfUxpFLHc72kKM:&imgrefurl=http://www.hkls.org/h_albimacula.htm&docid=7Sz_9v_W3QcxCM&imgurl=http://www.hkls.org/images/Horaga_albimacula.jpg&w=600&h=295&ei=NI6jTr7tM8rlrAf18ZX4Ag&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=367&vpy=211&dur=468&hovh=157&hovw=320&tx=148&ty=109&sig=110607905832302340608&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=259&start=0&ndsp=11&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0

It is doubtful if chacedonyx will be found that far north.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks. I'm learning all the time. It used to be so much easier when I was in England and only had 55, generally very distinct, species to deal with!!!!

[Psyche]

Oops this series of pic are in error. They are H. onyx. The legs are clearly seen in some of the pic.
In any case H. albimacula never have the hindwing band broaden.
http://gbear.myphotos.cc/butterfly/displayimage.php?album=227&pos=3

[Painted Jezebel]

Sorry, Seow, can I be clear on this, we do still have H. albimacula on these little Islands of ours, don't we? It is just the series of pics you linked that was wrong, yes?

A couple of papers are in preparation, so I have to get this right.

[Psyche]

Sorry, Seow, can I be clear on this, we do still have H. albimacula on these little Islands of ours, don't we? It is just the series of pics you linked that was wrong, yes?

A couple of papers are in preparation, so I have to get this right.


No problem here. What you have is H. albimacula.

It is not uncommon in mainland Hongkong.
So there is every chance it occurs right thru Indo-china.

What I am trying to prove is that it is not H. chacedonyx. on both Koh Phrangan, and Koh Samui.
The chance of H. chacedonyx in your island is extremely remote.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Wonderful, that is what I hoped to see. Thank you.:gbounce:

[Angiud]

Today another sighting of Horaga albimacula, in the Southermost part of Koh Phangan (KPG). A small and very shy butterfly, plus the strong wind of the North-East monsoon, has made difficult to take a good picture :sweat:

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m572/angiud/TheVioletOnyx.jpg

I have now given to Les another reason to come and visit me in KPG. :bsmile:

[Painted Jezebel]

How dare you!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!

We do have a problem here. Until a specimen is captured and held in an accepted collection, the presence of this species willl not be accepted as present in Thailand.

[Angiud]

:bsmile:

The only way to catch it (I don't have the proper equipment) is that you come here with your tools and (with a bit of luck) you get it. :whistle:

Today I'm sure they where 2 different, and almost the same spot (100 mt far) from my first catch).

[Psyche]

The greatest mystery is that with a distribution from India to Taiwan and all the way to Sundaland, how had it escaped detection in Thailand.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

I found this specimen dead in my lounge this morning. Knowing my propensity for mucking up the setting of smaller speices, I photographed it, before I had a chance to ruin it.

What species is this? (female I presume!)

[Psyche]

It looks like you have found another new species.

The wingshape indicates it is a female.
The underside is rather like H. syrinx except for the marginal spots in space 3 & 4. (poor 0r absent in syrinx); white forelegs.

Both H. syrinx & onyx have extensive blue in both sexes.
http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4/83160001.html

H. albimacula & chalcedonyx are both small species initially considered conspecific.

H. albimacula :upperside brown without basal blue scales (all continental forms)
: FW white spot do not extend below vein 2 (or barely); on the underside rapidly fades off below vein 2.
HK.
http://old.hkbutterfly.org/images/Horaga_albimacula.jpg
http://images1.fotop.net/albums/ciel/HoragaAlbimacula/LO0706232.jpg
India.
http://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/media_images/HoragaViola/HoragaViola_NilanjanBhattacharya_aj909.jpg

H. chalcedonyx.: Upperisde brown with blue basal scaling.
Upperside FW white spot extends below vein 2.
On the underside it also extend as a slightly narrower band below vein 2.

So this specimen matches H. chalcedonyx quite well.

TL Seow:cheers:
Female H. syrinx maenala.
http://www.nss.org.sg/butterflies_list/show_photo.php?img_id=618

PS2. H. chalcedonyx. Singapore. Note white forelegs as in H. albimacula; FW white band narrower but extend broadly below vein 2.
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq58/scarefree/196-6-Horaga-syrinx-maenala-Ambon-O.jpg

[Painted Jezebel]

Thank you very much. Horaga chalcedonyx had been my suspicion. It is now set (reasonably well for me!), and I will show you the result when dry. Wingspan is no more than 20mm.

This ID makes me wonder if the second photo in post 1 may also be this species. If it is, then H. albimacula has only been seen in KPG, and H. chalcedonyx only found on Samui, both unrecorded species from Thailand!

[Psyche]

Thank you very much. Horaga chalcedonyx had been my suspicion. It is now set (reasonably well for me!), and I will show you the result when dry. Wingspan is no more than 20mm.

This ID makes me wonder if the second photo in post 1 may also be this species. If it is, then H. albimacula has only been seen in KPG, and H. chalcedonyx only found on Samui, both unrecorded species from Thailand!

There is no doubting this specimen as H. chalcedonyx since everything matched.ie. white foreleg, FW white spot with an extension below vein 2 into space 1b; brown wings with basal blue.

It is difficult to differentiate the two species based on the underside.
All perceived differences in the past are partly incorrect because of variation.

In hindsight, I would say your post 1 pix 2 is likely H. chalcedonyx as well.

Probably all those in KPN are H. chalcedonyx too.
They do look somewahat like the pix of H. albimacula from HK but post 24 shows the underside FW white spot also extends broadly below vein 2 , although how far down is uncertain.
There is some variability in albimacula here.

India. Note the white spot extends broadly if diffusely below vein 2. (Not sure why taxon viola is elevated to full spp.)
http://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/media_images/HoragaOnyx/HoragaOnyx_JayantaDas_ap237.jpg
HK. This is more typical where the extension below vein 2 is poor.
http://old.hkbutterfly.org/images/Horaga_albimacula.jpg

In any case, only the upperside can provide a definitive diagnosis.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Thank you. The uncertainty regarding the KPG specimens due to variation is noted and understood.