Operation Ipoh - Day 1 (Gua Tempurung)

[Commander]

This is to start the thread for Loke, Chng and Cher Hern to add on. Our first day shootout at Gua Tempurung :)

[The Plane]

Many thanks to Loke for planning and organizing this trip for Khew, Cher Hern and me. And especially so for driving us around for the passed 3 days. He even selected the right dates :thumbsup: to be there as the weather was just nice for butt shooting. Lucky for us, rain only came when we were leaving Ipoh.

It was a wonderful trip for me where I've seen many different species in just 2 days. Hope to have more such trips in future. Here's some shots to start. Will post more later today as I'm bringing my camera for "operation" now :sweat:

Rohana parisatis siamensis
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5239/5806921882_e947f16a74_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/5806359037_768a10e659_b.jpg

The Banded Angle (Odontoptilum pygela pygela)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5080/5806360477_60f09bedb8_b.jpg

The Wavy Maplet (Chersonesia rahria rahria)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/5806922458_96af7f1d56_b.jpg

:cheers:

[Blue Nawab]

Yes, really thanks Loke for making this dream come true...thanks for all the plannings and arrangements and not forgetting Chng and Khew for the great bonding and company...:cheers: Here's the shots to show my appreciation...:bsmile:

Straight Pierrot
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/5806323565_d14575093e_z_d.jpg

Rohana parisatis siamensis - female
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3636/5806987796_f9b644baec_z_d.jpg

Common Four-Ring
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/5806968476_21b2a53fb9_z_d.jpg

Banded Peacock
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/5806906572_967635e5e6_z_d.jpg

[Silverstreak]

No show for White Dragontail!!!??

[Commander]

Got... got... be patient. :grin2:

Chng and CH should've nailed some good shots, whilst I was shooting the shooters... :bsmile:

[The Plane]

Here's my Lamproptera curius curius (White Dragontail)...quite difficult to shoot due to the small space constrain and rocky terrain, unless one is willing to sacrifice and get wet...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3016/5807157291_f60172dd43_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5120/5808733480_37e368e3e5_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/5807156715_ffa6bf69ed_z.jpg

...and a peeing WDT
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5181/5807722434_4852a03734_b.jpg

[Great Mormon]

Chng: What a pristine DT! The tails are so long!

CherHern: Certainly a lovely set of non-local butterflies, where is your white DT? :P

[Blue Nawab]

More shots to share...:cheers:

Lamproptera curius curius (White Dragontail)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/5807816158_c112492920_z_d.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3082/5807975762_d000d37442_z_d.jpg

Chersonesia rahria rahria (Wavy Maplet)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/5807237937_5d1b084ab2_z_d.jpg

Jamides philatus subditus
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2139/5807786462_9a6b41d0c3_z_d.jpg

Tongeia potanini glycon (Dark Cupid)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5235/5807739644_08de091a0f_z_d.jpg

[Blue Nawab]

More shots...:cheers:

Prosotas gracilis ni
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5077/5807778448_26b6408dd6_z_d.jpg

Banded Peacock
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5105/5807231581_4005fb1b65_z_d.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/5806837900_ae3b18f940_z_d.jpg

White Dragontail
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/5805216878_b8353fcd2b_z_d.jpg

[Cruiser]

Nice series guys! looks like you guys got the great time there :cheers:

[Bluebottle]

Many thanks to Loke for planning and organizing this trip for Khew, Cher Hern and me. And especially so for driving us around for the passed 3 days. He even selected the right dates :thumbsup: to be there as the weather was just nice for butt shooting. Lucky for us, rain only came when we were leaving Ipoh.


Don't mention, Chng, Cher Hern. The pleasure is mine to host you guys. I enjoyed the trip to the Dragon Moat and The King's Place as much as you guys do!

Sharing some shots...

1. Tagiades japetus atticus (Common Snow Flat)
2. Jamides philatus subditus
3. Anthene lycaenina miya (Pointed Ciliate Blue)
4. Allotinus unicolor unicolor (Lesser Darkie)
5. Red Helen (Papilio helenus helenus)

[Bluebottle]

7. Chersonesia rahria rahria (Wavy Maplet)
8. Rohana parisatis siamensis (Female)
9. Rohana parisatis siamensis (Male)
10. Megisba malaya sikkima (The Malayan)
11. Halpe hauxwelli
12 Tongeia potanini glycon (Dark Cupid)
13. Delias hyparete metarete (Painted Jezebel)

[Glorious Begum]

Nice shots guys. :cheers:

[Commander]

Two shots of a friendly Malayan White Flat (Siseria affinis kermana) that came down to puddle. Supposedly rare.

[Yamfly]

So many nice and pristine butts to shoot. This is way too awesome!!

[Bluebottle]

14. Straight Pierrot
15 Straight Pierrot
16. Banded Peacock
17 Banded Peacock
18. Commander
19. Malayan White Flat (Siseria affinis kermana)
20. Malayan White Flat (Siseria affinis kermana)

[Commander]

Loke, the Helen is a Red Helen (Papilio helenus helenus) and not the one we find in Singapore.

[The Plane]

Some record shots, not sure the ID of the other 2. Need the help of Seow to ID them.

Tagiades gana gana
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/5808342894_1b3017f785_b.jpg

Unknown #1?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/5808342534_be989e6ecf_z.jpg

Unknown #2?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2308/5807776059_ddfa7a4ec7_z.jpg

[Commander]

Does anyone have a better upperside shot of #2? I have one lousy cropped shot, and it looks like the Red Spot Marquis (Bassarona recta monilis) with its forewing band's costal spot in alignment with the band.

I only managed to shoot the underside.

[Commander]

More shots...

[The Plane]

Ahhhh, the shot I've been waiting to see : the PJ shot with reflection. Great and very nice :thumbsup: . Unfortunately, too late for me to have another go at it, I only managed half a reflection :bsmile:

[Blue Nawab]

Somemore shots...:bsmile:

Unknown Skipper
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5276/5808386608_849ea96302_z_d.jpg

Painted Jezebel
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3465/5808546894_cae0050cd1_z_d.jpg

Malayan Albatross (Saletara liberia distanti)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/5808329230_1e92e67f6c_z_d.jpg

Straight Pierrot
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5078/5807804017_99ac223b69_z_d.jpg

Rohana parisatis siamensis (Male)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5807796005_680c19a8fa_z_d.jpg

[Commander]

That common white fella is the Malayan Albatross (Saletara liberia distanti)

[Blue Nawab]

That common white fella is the Malayan Albatross (Saletara liberia distanti)
Thanks for the ID! :cheers:

[Great Mormon]

So many beautiful shots! I cant make up my mind which is my favourite shot of the series, they are all equally as brilliant!

[The Plane]

2 more to share :cheers:

Tawny Rajah (Charaxes bernardus crepax)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2638/5808785502_cc6393e85a_b.jpg

Painted Jezebel (Delias hyparete metarete)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3524/5808785990_200bfc6d44_b.jpg

[Psyche]

Loke, 11 is Halpe hauxwelli.

Chng, 1 is Bassarona teuta. Note last spot angled in to the costal margin.
2 is Jamides philatus.

Cher Hern , the skipper is most likely Telicota augias from its deep orange colour.

TL Seow:cheers:

[bluefin]

Beautiful Series of shots from everyone. :cheers:
Great variety and species of butties. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Painted Jezebel]

That common white fella is the Malayan Albatross (Saletara liberia distanti)

Sorry, SK, got to disagree with you here. It is Appias albina albina (Common Albatross). I see that Seow has already corrected the Bassarona species.

There is one more that I think is wrongly identified. I believe that the Chersonesia species in post number 8 is Chersonesia intermedia, as I can only see one subapical spot. The one in post 2 I am less sure about.

I must add all that these photographs are absolutely fantastic. I am very jealous!

[jamesf]

Nice series with many good shots :thumbsup:

[Commander]

Sorry, SK, got to disagree with you here. It is Appias albina albina (Common Albatross). I see that Seow has already corrected the Bassarona species.

I took record shots of the upperside of both species, but at quite a distance. I'll post the uppersides later on to re-confirm both species. The Bassarona that I shot was obviously a different individual from Chng's. There were a few around, so it's quite possible that both species were found there too.

As for the Appias, there was a distinct black border on the upperside forewing that led me to conclude that it was the Saletaria. Shots to follow later tonight.

[Common Mime]

Very fruitful outing for you guys! Enjoy the series very much! Thank you!

[Commander]

Very fruitful outing for you guys! Enjoy the series very much! Thank you!

So when you going back to your hometown again? There may be other members here who may want to tag along with you to visit these places. :)

[Psyche]

Going through the Chersonesia key brought back memory when the grey cells get scrambled and the brain turned to mush. The key is very confusing to say the least.

It is better to follow standard convention and called the four bands thus from the outermost to the innermost.
Postdiscal ( with the spots ) Discal (single in rahria/intermedia ) Subdiscal and Postbasal ( or Sub-basal ).

Chersonesia rahria
Forewing postdiscal band with a single black dash/spot near the upper end (occasionally an additional small dot ).
Hindwing postdiscal band almost always wider than the inner two bands (occasionally equal).
Hindwing postdiscal band not connected to tornal margin by a black mark.

Chersonesia intermedia
Forewing postdiscal band with two black dashes/spots near the upper end.
Hindwing postdiscal band no wider than the inner two bands.
Hindwing postdiscal band continued to the tornal margin by a black mark.

All the maplets are C. rahria.

TL Seow:cheers:

[The Plane]

Seow, Thanks for helping with the ID for Bassarona teuta and Jamides philatus. :cheers:

[Commander]

Sorry, SK, got to disagree with you here. It is Appias albina albina (Common Albatross). I see that Seow has already corrected the Bassarona species.

Ok, here goes some shots for further discussion on these two.

Appias albina albina - in C&P4 page 90, A. albina is described as not common and prefers well-wooded localities at elevations of about 2,000 ft. The male is white above and is unmarked except for the very narrow black costal shading on the forewing.

Saletara liberia distanti - C&P4 describes the male as "varies from creamy white to pale yellow, and is unmarked save for a rather narrow black border along the costal and distal margins of the forewing. The under surface is of a deeper yellow tint. S. liberia is rarely found above 2,000 ft the males are often common locally and may be taken congregated at moist spots on forest roads.

I'm aware that the shots in Pisuth's book may show that A. albina to have a dark border like that shown in the upperside shot here, but what we shot here is still a Malaysian subspecies shot in Malaysia, so I would be more inclined to favour C&P4 as my reference. Also, Gua Tempurung is nowhere near 2,000ft above sea level.


As for the Bassarona, what would your conclusion be, after taking a look at these two heavily-cropped shots of the upperside?

[Bluebottle]

Thanks Khew, Les and Seow for the id. :cheers:


Does anyone have a better upperside shot of #2? I have one lousy cropped shot, and it looks like the Red Spot Marquis (Bassarona recta monilis) with its forewing band's costal spot in alignment with the band.

I only managed to shoot the underside.

Not sure whether you are referring to this guy...

[Leopard Lacewing]

Very nice series and fruitful trip! Well done guys! :thumbsup

Cheers!

[Painted Jezebel]

As for the Bassarona, what would your conclusion be, after taking a look at these two heavily-cropped shots of the upperside?

These are definitely Bassarona recta monilis (the tornal red spot clinches it). It does appear that you came across both species.

As for the Appias/Saletara species. C&P4 says that the male upperside of Saletara liberia is creamy white to pale yellow. This, to me anyway, is not creamy. Personally, I would stick with my original decision, Appias albina. I know my experience with this species is from Thailand, but I find it at sea level as well.

[Commander]

These are definitely Bassarona recta monilis (the tornal red spot clinches it). It does appear that you came across both species.

Do you have any specimens of both to cross check? From those that I encountered that day at Gua Tempurung, I noticed that on the underside, the diffused spots towards the costa of the forewing seem to move out of alignment as compared to the upperside. That near-pristine specimen that I posted an underside shot of, was actually the same individual as the two blurred upperside shots!


As for the Appias/Saletara species. C&P4 says that the male upperside of Saletara liberia is creamy white to pale yellow. This, to me anyway, is not creamy. Personally, I would stick with my original decision, Appias albina. I know my experience with this species is from Thailand, but I find it at sea level as well.

Ok. But the plates in C&P4 show an unmarked upperside male whilst the seasonal form is totally different in appearance. The shots taken from your website (http://www.delias-butterflies.co.uk/Koh%20Samui%20Butterflies/Pieridae/appiasalbina.htm) also show A. albina as unmarked on the upperside, unlike this one that we shot. And your description says "The male of this common species is easily identifiable, it has hardly any markings whatsoever!", which I also agree with.

On the Saletara however, the Yutaka website (http://yutaka.it-n.jp/pie/20320010.html) shows a closer match to what we shot. Photos attached below.

The other site that shows A. albina in more detail also indicate a featureless upperside in the male. This is from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appias_albina). Picture also attached.

Other searches on the internet also turned up confusing pictures of both, so there is room for debate on these two lookalikes. :)

#1 & #2 : from Butterflies of Koh Samui (Appias albina)
#3 & #4 : from Yutaka website (Saletara panda syn. liberia)
#5 : from Wikipedia (Appias albina male & female forms)

[Psyche]

I tend to agree with Les on both counts, Khew.
With two near identical species flyng around it is easy enough to lose track of one and follow the other.

As for Saletara (named after the Orang Seletar) this used to be a not uncommon butterfly in the past. All I had seen are cream, never white, and deeper in colour below. It is not white above as in A. albina or have that tinge of bluish-white on the underside.
The other important features are the black margins on the termen and on the costa above and below. They are very dark, almost jet-black making them distinctive.

I noticed in past postings the difference between these two have been brought up, and almost invariably the pic was of A. albina. This attest to the rarity of Saletara.

Currently the name is S. panda (after the Roman Goddess of food, not the bear),while liberia is reserved for the papuan forms.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Commander]

Sorry, getting a bit confusing here. So what you're saying is that all those that we were shooting were A. albina? From the shots on the Yutaka website, it does appear that what we shot looks closer to the Saletara than A. albina. Or is the Yutaka website showing wrong shots?

Also, in Plate 8 Fig 19 of C&P4, that male A. albina sure doesn't look like what we shot at Gua Tempurung. :thinking:

[Commander]

And a final shot of a Blue Leaf Blue (Amblypodia narada taooana) puddling. The purple upperside of this fellow is gorgeous!

[Psyche]

Sorry, getting a bit confusing here. So what you're saying is that all those that we were shooting were A. albina? From the shots on the Yutaka website, it does appear that what we shot looks closer to the Saletara than A. albina. Or is the Yutaka website showing wrong shots?

Also, in Plate 8 Fig 19 of C&P4, that male A. albina sure doesn't look like what we shot at Gua Tempurung. :thinking:

Nothing wrong with both.

The Yutaka website shows a male Saletara that is whiter than usual, lighting perhaps.
C&P4 shows an A. albina male that is typically taken from the highlands of Malaya.

Have a look at the status of A. albina in Thailand on the Yutaka site.
Appias albina albina no longer exist in Thailand.
The whole population of A. albina in Thailand, whether highland or lowland, whether with or without dark borders is now Appias albina darada. The distribution map shows specimens are taken right at the very border with Malaysia.

When the status of the Malayan population is reviewd (we'll have to wait for a Japanese scientist probably) rest assured it will be changed to A. albina darada as well.

The original race or norminate subspecies A. albina albina is from Ambon in the Moluccas islands.

The single male of A. albina darada shown is very similar.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

I, too, am confused about Appias albina, as I admit on my website, as I have come across two forms of the female here on Samui. These are given different names in different publications. I will also admit that I have only seen females of Saletera panda (as I call it, though I have used S. liberia here as that is what it is called in C&P4) both in Endau-Rompin and Borneo, never males.

Regarding the Bassarona species, the best thing I can do is to refer you to the 'Travels' section of my website, and in the Malaysia section, you will find examples of both B. teuta and B. recta next to each other, both found at Gopeng. The difference in the positioning of the the last spot near the costa is quite clear. I am sure that SK got B. recta and Chng got B. teuta.

Oh! I forgot to say earlier that I love the Malayan White Flat, I have never seen it before. Thank you.

[Commander]

Thanks for an interesting discussion, Les & Seow. If this conclusion is accurate, then it would be good material for a paper to present the existence of the subspecies darada of A. albina in Malaysia. I don't think any sort of information has been published to that effect yet.

So, to summarise, we have :

Appias albina darada (male) from Koh Samui
http://butterflycircle.org/Appiasalbinacombo.JPG

Subject Pierid from Gua Tempurung, Perak
http://butterflycircle.org/GT-Pierid.JPG

Saletara panda distanti from Klong Nakha, Ranong, Thailand
http://butterflycircle.org/Saletaracombo.JPG

And the discussion that we have here, points to the conclusion that the subject Pierid that was photographed from Gua Tempurung, is a male Appias albina darada.

By coincidence (or fortune if you may call it that), I took two specimens from that location in Gua Tempurung. :sweat: One was a Fluffy Tit that Loke or Cher Hern showed me, and the other was this Appias/Saletara. Both were trampled by the hordes of visitors and unable to fly. So I just kept them anyway. Will show the Pierid in due course for further discourse. :)

[Painted Jezebel]

SK, I, too, have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Here is another photo, not so bright, of a male A. albina from Samui, which, I think, is closer to what you took.

[Psyche]

Khew, if you have a specimen in hand this should solves the mystery.
One notable difference is the size.
While albina is the size of the common A. lynceus, S. panda is noticeably smaller.

Although I have seen a lot of S. panda of both sexes they were a long time ago.
I have a lingering doubt because these two look so similar.

Les, I am surprised you have not come across any male Saletara since you appear quite cofident with the ID.

TL Seow:cheers:

[Painted Jezebel]

Les, I am surprised you have not come across any male Saletara since you appear quite cofident with the ID.

I should have added 'in the wild'. I have seen quite a few males in collections back in England. I also recall that the forewing apex in Saletera is more pointed than in Appias. I think the term 'quite confident' is apt as I can not be fully sure, but I am always happy to be proved wrong, as is often the case.

[Commander]

I think the term 'quite confident' is apt as I can not be fully sure, but I am always happy to be proved wrong, as is often the case.

:bsmile: We're not here to prove who's right or wrong. Such discussions are good to have, as it presents different perspectives from different people, and we learn as a group. There are new aspects of butterflies that individually we may not have noticed or considered, until someone else highlights it.

I just wish that TeoTP and Steven Neo would jump in and discuss as well, cos I'm sure that in their own respective 'museums' they would have more than a couple of these species' specimens, and observations to share.

[teotp]

Sorry, I was away to Tioman for a short trip and return today.
Unable to post any thing yet till I go through carefully the details of the discussions.

Teo T P

[teotp]

Hi guys,

Will solve out the id problem this Saturday. Thank you for your patience.

Teo T P

[Commander]

Missed out posting this Common Jay that was puddling together with the Red Helens... :)

[teotp]

:bsmile: We're not here to prove who's right or wrong. Such discussions are good to have, as it presents different perspectives from different people, and we learn as a group.

I just wish that TeoTP and Steven Neo would jump in and discuss...

Since the discussion between Steven, SK and myself on 18 Jun 2011 and I didn't see any reply from SK. The id of the butterfly is Appias albina based on the following reasons:

1. Forewing vien 9 is comparatively long and arising before the end of vien 10 - Appias. (See C&P 4 pages 82 and 89.)

2. The different of venations between Appias and Saletara (forewing vien 9 absent or very short, arising beyond the end of vien 10), please refer to "Butterflies of the South East Asian Islands, volume 2, pages 359 and 392.

I agreed with SK that we are not here to prove who's right or wrong. The most important thing is we learn and enjoy the discussion on forum.

Teo T P

[Commander]

Sorry Teo. Was too busy to process and post the shots that I took when I was at your place. Les is away at Maliau Basin so I thought I'd wait for him to get back. :)

But you're right in that we were debating over the secondary characteristics like colour, size and markings, which are very similar and variable at the same time between the Appias and Saletara. Hence our debate would have been inconclusive, just based on those characteristics.

You pointed us in the right direction by looking at the apical venation that separates the two genera, and we concluded beyond a doubt that all the shots of the species that we encountered at Gua Tempurung, are all of Appias. Hence it is most likely that A. albina is the identity of this species.

I will post shots of both the Appias and Saletara for comparison when I've processed the shots.

Once again, thanks for your guidance.

[teotp]

Once again, thanks for your guidance.

Typing error SK, it should be "discussion" and not "guidance".

Teo T P

[Painted Jezebel]

I agreed with SK that we are not here to prove who's right or wrong. The most important thing is we learn and enjoy the discussion on forum.



There is obviously a culture difference here. Where I come from, one looks forward to be proven right or wrong. This is a good thing and certainly not a point of oneupmanship. Sorry if it has different connotations in Asia.

[teotp]

There is obviously a culture difference here. Where I come from, one looks forward to be proven right or wrong. This is a good thing and certainly not a point of oneupmanship. Sorry if it has different connotations in Asia.

I certainly didn't realised the different of cultures between Europe and Asia, but stand at the scientific point of view, this is a good thing, Les.

Teo T P