Cat ID Assistance please

[atronox]

Indeed the Elephant Hawkmoth is placed in Deilephila, as was nerii until quite recently.

One must remember that as yet higher taxonomy, i.e. understanding lineage, has been a rather haphazard process, and in reality still is, even with the advent of molecular techniques. Most analyses undertaken do not involve the complete range of species within a particular group, whether it be the genus, subtribe, tribe or even higher ranks, simply due to the numbers of species involved and their distributions being such that it becomes almost impossible to obtain sufficient material to undertake a complete analysis. The end result is that stability in Lepidopteran taxonomy has yet to be achieved, even for relatively well known groups like the Sphingidae.

cheers, Roger.

Thx Roger. Even groups like macrolepidoptera and microlepidoptera are poorly defined.

[hkmoths]

Thx Roger. Even groups like macrolepidoptera and microlepidoptera are poorly defined.

Technically, these two terms have no taxonomic standing whatsoever. It is a convenient grouping that separates the more primitive families from the more recently evolved families, the dividing line generally falling at the Pyraloidea (considered microleps, though given "honorary" macrolep status as in many cases they are larger than a good number of "macros", such as the smaller lithosiines, eublemmines, most eustrotiines, Micronoctuidae and most eupitheciines). The Hepialoidea, Zygaenoidea and Cossoidea are also primitive taxa that would fall under the microlep group, though most moth-ers regard them as honorary macros as well. There are so many exceptions, that in reality I think it is confusing to keep using the macro / micro split.

cheers, Roger.

[atronox]

Technically, these two terms have no taxonomic standing whatsoever. It is a convenient grouping that separates the more primitive families from the more recently evolved families, the dividing line generally falling at the Pyraloidea (considered microleps, though given "honorary" macrolep status as in many cases they are larger than a good number of "macros", such as the smaller lithosiines, eublemmines, most eustrotiines, Micronoctuidae and most eupitheciines). The Hepialoidea, Zygaenoidea and Cossoidea are also primitive taxa that would fall under the microlep group, though most moth-ers regard them as honorary macros as well. There are so many exceptions, that in reality I think it is confusing to keep using the macro / micro split.

cheers, Roger.

Come to think of it, it seems that they are not split according to size as the terms suggest bt rather whether they are monorysian or ditrysian.

[hkmoths]

Come to think of it, it seems that they are not split according to size as the terms suggest bt rather whether they are monorysian or ditrysian.

This isn't the split used either - as I said the terms macrolepidoptera and microlepidoptera don't hold any water. They are terms of convenience.
Monotrysia and Ditrysia are formal taxonomic names that also don't hold water, as Monotrysia is a polyphyletic group (see Scoble, 1992: pp190-191), and consequently has fallen into a state of relative disuse.
The "Monotrysia" comprise the superfamilies up to Tischerioidea.

cheers, Roger.

Scoble, M.J., 1992. The Lepidoptera: Form, Function & Diversity. Oxford University Press. xi + 404 pp.

[atronox]

This isn't the split used either - as I said the terms macrolepidoptera and microlepidoptera don't hold any water. They are terms of convenience.
Monotrysia and Ditrysia are formal taxonomic names that also don't hold water, as Monotrysia is a polyphyletic group (see Scoble, 1992: pp190-191), and consequently has fallen into a state of relative disuse.
The "Monotrysia" comprise the superfamilies up to Tischerioidea.

cheers, Roger.

Scoble, M.J., 1992. The Lepidoptera: Form, Function & Diversity. Oxford University Press. xi + 404 pp.

Checking wiki...
Thx Roger.

[Painted Jezebel]

Please take great care before relying too much on Wikipedia. Anyone can post entries, and they are not checked or verified or updated. There are many out of date, or incorrect entries there.

[atronox]

Please take great care before relying too much on Wikipedia. Anyone can post entries, and they are not checked or verified or updated. There are many out of date, or incorrect entries there.

Thx Les, i'll use it less often.