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Thread: ID requests

  1. #11
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    Red face

    Post 10.

    They are all females of Rapala dieneces. Correction: Rapala cowani females.
    2 is more readily identiafiable.
    The postdiscal band is orange brown.
    The UpF have a copper-brown patch.
    Typical females.
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...ash_Nelson.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...20-%20Chng.jpg

    1 is taken without a flash & appeared greyer & darker.
    Note diffusion of orange into space 3 & 4 is common in R. dieneces.

    Another species to look out for is R. scintilla.
    This closely resembles R. manea but is grey tinged on the underside.
    Male have only the HW upperside blue-shot. In R manea it is both; Females are identical.
    It is possible some of the grey R. manea is R. scintilla.
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...derside_03.jpg
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/lyc4i/84070001.html


    Typical R. manea 2 males, 2 females.
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...lt_male_03.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...lt_male_01.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...20-%20Khew.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...-Simon-Sng.jpg


    R. cowani is grey with the postdiscal band dark grey.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...et_1939_PT.jpg
    Riau Island.
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...peg?1578494354



    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 11-Aug-2022 at 03:38 AM.

  2. #12
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    The Rapala are female Rapala cowani- the greyish ventral ground colour (from all angles and under different lighting conditions- the orange scales around the tornal black spot contrast strongly with the ground colour; in dieneces and relatives this contrast is weaker because of the ground colour which is already ochreous), visible dark scaling proximal to the post-medians, heavier submarginal markings and cupreous patches on the dorsal side all check out.
    Aaron Soh

  3. #13

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    Hi Dr Seow, I would agree more with Aaron at least for the second individual, the ground colour seems too greyish from that of the regular pale brown of female R. dieneces we typically see. In C&P5 it mentions in the key ID feature for R. cowani females "uppersides always with a cupreous discal patch on the forewing and sometimes with a cupreous subtornal patch on the hindwing", which closely resembles that in the pictures. Could you have another look at it again?
    Jian Kai

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJK1410 View Post
    Hi Dr Seow, I would agree more with Aaron at least for the second individual, the ground colour seems too greyish from that of the regular pale brown of female R. dieneces we typically see. In C&P5 it mentions in the key ID feature for R. cowani females "uppersides always with a cupreous discal patch on the forewing and sometimes with a cupreous subtornal patch on the hindwing", which closely resembles that in the pictures. Could you have another look at it again?
    Yes. I would concede Aaron is correct.

    Both are female Rapala cowani females.


    My confusion stem from the fact that all four live shots of Rapala cowani I have seen, one from Johor, P. Malaysia, two from Pulau Ubin & the fourth from Riau are distinctly grey as in the Riau example.
    But this looks obviously different from the typical female Rapala dieneces.
    I may add the FW margin is crenate ie scalloped more strongly in the female this species.


    TL Seow: Cheers.

  5. #15

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    Thank you for all the inputs Dr Seow and Aaron! Hopefully there would be more individuals of this elusive species seen in the near future
    Jian Kai

  6. #16
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    This is one of the female from Pulau Ubin.
    https://static.inaturalist.org/photo...468/large.jpeg

    I was emailed another similar grey female from Chek Jawa , Pulau Ubin years ago but did not keep the image.

    It would be good to check out the male.


    TL Seow: Cheers.

  7. #17

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    Hi Dr Seow,

    I was relooking at the ID features of Ypthima baldus and Ypthima horsfieldii and it seems there are a lot of different opinions on how to distinguish the two. Initially I thought the way to differentiate the two was whether the HW ocelli in spaces 5&6 and 2&3 are adjoined or separated, it seems like a consistent feature in those that I have shot. But looking through the forums and other references, it seems that is not the correct way. May I ask what the "correct" way (if there is one) to distinguish them? Thank you!

    Some of my Ypthima shots, please correct them if I got the ID wrong:

    Ypthima baldus:
    baldus (1).jpeg
    baldus (2).jpeg

    Ypthima horsfieldii:
    horsfieldii (1).jpeg
    horsfieldii (2).jpeg
    horsfieldii (3).jpeg
    horsfieldii maybe.jpeg
    Jian Kai

  8. #18
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    This is one of those complrx issue which no one has answered properly.

    Eliot opined that during the formation of Sundaland & the subsequent separation of the landmasses several taxa were established thus.
    taxon newboldi Isthmus of Kra.
    taxon humei Malaya.
    taxon moerus Sumatra
    taxon selinuntius Borneo.
    taxon horsfieldi Java.

    When Malaya rejoined the mainland, taxon newboldi moves into it. Thus two taxa humei & newboldi occur in Malaya.

    The Javan taxon was shown to be different enough to elevated as a separate species Y. horsfieldii.
    Eliot surmise the two taxa newboldi & humei have not fully intergrated & can be recognised as separate species.
    He concluded that humei, the Sundanian form can be treated as a subspecies of the Javanese Y. horsfieldii.
    Taxon newboldi would remain as a ssp. of the continental Y. baldus.
    He suggest that the Sumatran moerus & the Bornean selinuntius are part of (ie ssp) Y. horsfieldii.


    Many authors have not adopt this view.
    Yukata does not recognise Y. horsfieldii humei & lump all under Y. baldus newboldi.
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/41000010.html

    A DNA barcoding study down in 2015 by a team from the University of Malaya concluded that 1, taxon newboldi should be treated as a new species from Y. baldus and 2 Y. horsfieldi humei and Y. nebulosa are the same species.
    See pdf article.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=ypth...QHnIUgXPtVQ5sM

    These views are also not universally accepted.
    It is easy to cross the border & mis-identifed something as Y. nebulosa.
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/41020001.html
    As for taxon newboldi it probably can be defined as a separate species from Y. baldus.

    However, we are only concerned about the differences of these two taxa Y. horsfieldi humei & Y. baldus newboldi .
    Undoubtedly there will be some hybrids causing great difficulty.


    Y. horsfieldii horsfieldii from Java; There are forms with large conjoined ocelli.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bewell...ve/48806657387
    https://www.jungledragon.com/image/1...rsfieldii.html

    Ypthima baldus selinuntius from Borneo. No author have consider this a ssp. of Y. horsfieldi (though this appear logical.)
    https://www.jamiun.com/ypthima-baldus-common-five-ring/



    Y. baldus newboldi.
    Ground colour buff, very pale yellowish brown with the striae median or ochreous brown
    Usually HW spot 6 smaller than spot 5, & spots 2 & 3 conjoined.
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DN5O-c2TqL...Anthony_01.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...pair_Bobby.jpg
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/check...r_Bobby_02.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...138/large.jpeg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...2530/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...847/large.jpeg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...9364/large.jpg
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FotENHGIM...t_Bobby_02.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...461/large.jpeg


    Ypthima horsfiedii humei
    Ground colour white & striae dark grey-brown creating a greater contrast.
    HW ocelli usually separated & HW spot 5 & 6 subequal, sometimes the upper spot 6 larger.
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...8023/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...9989/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...7077/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...384/large.jpeg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...589/large.jpeg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...3320/large.jpg
    https://inaturalist-open-data.s3.ama...374/large.jpeg


    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 18-Aug-2022 at 05:37 AM.

  9. #19
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    Post 17.
    Your shots.

    Y. baldus
    1 is probably a form of Y. horsfieldii. Correction: Y. baldus.
    2 is typical Y. baldus.


    Y horsfieldii.
    1, 2, & 4 should be Y. baldus.
    3 is Y. horsfieldii.


    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 18-Aug-2022 at 06:30 AM.

  10. #20

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    Thank you Dr Seow for the clarifications. It seems like there's quite a lot of variation in these two species, I'll have to take a closer look at them in the future.

    Here's one more:
    The ground colour seems rather white, spots 5 & 6 roughly equal, big spacing between spots 2 & 3, so this should be Y. horsfieldii?
    photo1660805109.jpeg
    Last edited by LJK1410; 18-Aug-2022 at 03:53 PM.
    Jian Kai

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