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Thread: Doubtful Butterflies from Meghalaya

  1. #1
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    Default Doubtful Butterflies from Meghalaya

    Dear Dr. Seow sir, I am stuck with the ID of the following species photographed in Meghalaya. I have no idea about the Ypthima but try to narrow down the ID of the Lethe as Lethe distans based on the following keys I have collected in previous post on this forum (pretending it is a female)?:

    FW white cross band narrow, typically not breaking the outer border of the dark zone?
    FW submarginal line & ocelli looks obscure.
    HW outer dark line not so bent in.
    The slight upper visible from the broken area looks bright red?

    The female of Lethe mekara and Lethe distans however looked similar though.

    Doubts: This one has the HW outer dark line not so bent in, so tentative Lethe mekara?

    DSC_0150 (2).JPG


    Ypthima UFO (Looked like a Fivering). Striking out Y. baldus looking at UN obscure fasciae. UP is almost without any dark fasciae? It is from January season.

    DSC_0143 (2).JPG DSC_0150.JPG

    DSC_0155.JPG DSC_0161 (2).JPG DSC_0164.JPG


    Please hekp me with the Ids of the males too.

    3. Lethe distans / Lethe chandica?
    The FW white cross band looks narrower? but the marginal lines and ocelli are prominent.

    6d320f55-e537-4946-909d-f70fd617b1fa.jpg


    4. In the followings, the FW white cross band appears broad and HW dark line strongly bent in? so I considered them as Lethe chandica

    a).

    720ca2bd-3fe3-4d2a-b10b-c06f6388e518.jpg

    b).

    7977ea40-e827-48ab-862b-8342aa7a9893.jpg

    c).

    c4d9c1ab-2b94-4020-9088-baeec40db419.jpg

    d),

    fca4d56a-42ef-48d4-8859-0536b5c6c6ea.jpg



    Cheers
    Last edited by Saffron; 10-Jul-2021 at 02:11 PM.

  2. #2
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    Unhappy

    The three species can be rather confusing.

    It is also possible intermediates between the species (crosses) cause wide & confusing variations.

    The underside have two dark lines . Evsns called them discal & basal lines. Eliot called the inner one sub-basal.
    Since the inner line is quite far from the base, I called it the sub-basal line following Eliot.


    Lethe mekara.
    HW sub-basal lines straight.
    HW discal line curved out relatively shallow into the ocelli.
    FW discal line ( running beside the ocelli )also fairly straight.
    Female upperside dusky red. Male less so.

    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/sp/1046/Lethe-mekara
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/40240010.html


    Lethe chandica.
    HW sub-basal line irregular, with several teeth.
    HW discal line cuts deeply into the ocelli.
    FW discal line strongly undulate.
    Female UpH dusky red; male with red obscure or absent.

    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/sp/921/Lethe-chandica
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/40260001.html


    Lethe distans.
    HW sub-basal line slightly irregular, may nae a tootyh or broken.
    HW discal line angled out into the ocelli much as in L. mekara, sharper, but less than in L. chandica.
    FW discal line slightly irregular, with some undulation.
    Male UpH outer area bright red with prominent black spots; female mostly bright red.

    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/40250001.html
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...c4354c6c-1.jpg
    (The rest of the BOI images , male L. distans are uncertain , ? L. chandica & the female L. mekara.)
    Last edited by Psyche; 10-Jul-2021 at 06:11 PM.

  3. #3
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    1. female L/ mekara.
    HW sub-basal line straight without irregularities, ie, tooth, angle or break.
    The FW discal line is undulate with the ocelli but this occur in the female.

    3. Male L. mekara
    HW sub-basal line straight.
    FW discal line is also straight here.


    4. All male L. chandica.
    HW discal line is deeply angulated outwards into the ocelli.
    HW sub-basal line is very irregular.
    FW discal line is strongly undulate/scalloped.

  4. #4
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    Revision.

    These are terribly difficult to ID properly.
    In comparing 1 with standard L. mekara females there appear to be no difference.

    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...5b3132ba-1.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...fd284f09-1.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe_...stans_80_1.jpg

    The space between the HW discal line & spots 2 & 3 are narrow.
    In L. distans this is typically farther apart.

    The red colour is sublective in photos if flash is used.


    Lethe distans is an egnima.
    These male have red UpH showing and probably correct as L. distans.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...uRoy_as969.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...49c2995a-1.jpg
    The 2nd have the space between spots 2 & 3 & the dark discal line narrow & would be Ided as L. chandica if the red UpH is not showing.

    Possibly L. chandica differs also in being always more darkly contrasted than L. distan.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...unte_ag593.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...d871b0b5-1.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...dDas_ai022.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...2abb0ee1-1.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...99d2dddf-1.jpg

    Comparing these two ,they are practically identical except colour shade.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...d871b0b5-1.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...49c2995a-1.jpg
    Last edited by Psyche; 10-Jul-2021 at 08:28 PM.

  5. #5
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    It seems perhaps Lethe distans and Lethe chandica are very difficult to ID on the underside except -

    a). space between spots 2 & 3 & the dark discal line
    b). Colour contrast

    These above keys as you mentioned seems to be bit reliable I guess.

    Reading those tough taxonomic keys, I am posting here, what I think, may be reliable to be Lethe distans, Male?

    HW sub-basal line slightly irregular, may nearly a toothy or broken.
    HW discal line angled out into the ocelli much as in L. mekara, sharper, but less than in L. chandica.
    The colour contrast is also less?
    A bright red area is visible on the HW?

    Additional: the space between spots 2 & 3 & the dark discal line also looks comparatively wide?

    DSC_0127 - Copy.JPG

    Lethe distans is legally protected in India under Schedule I of the Wildlife (Protection) Act, 1972. So, it is impossible either to collect specimens or to handle it for the upeer.


    Thank you so much sir for the valuable points.

  6. #6
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    Post 5

    This male have all the criteria for Lethe distans.
    1. Dark discal line not extending deep.
    2. HW sub-basal line have a single tooth.
    3. Space between spots 2 & 3 & discal line wide.
    4. Markings not deeply contrasted.


    In most cases of L chandica the dark discal line should extend in a curve, deeply along vein 4 & coming close to spot 3.

    One problem is the lack of proper UpH shots to confirm the IDs in the web images.
    Question. do the male L. chandica with obscure red UpH shows prominent red under flash.

  7. #7
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    2. ? dsf L. methora.


    On the specimen HW spots 2 & 3 are visible.

    This marks it as a Five-ring with discal fascia.
    The species without discal fascia can be ignored.
    In addition, UpH shows a dark submarginal line which widens in space 4 & 5.

    Y. baldus have UpH submarginal line linear throughout & UnH discal fascia curved.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...e90c3b5a-1.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...ef90674b-1.jpg

    Y. persimilis have UpH submarginal line broad throughout & UnH fascia vague.
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/41063001.html

    Y. savara have UnH both fasciae straight.
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/sat/41070001.html


    This leaves two species. L. methora & affectata.
    UpH submarginal line is wider in space 4 & 5.
    In the key the main difference is size.

    Y. affectata is smaller .expanse < 45mm. UnH is darker & discal fascia may be vague.
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...unte_as961.jpg
    https://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/me...unte_as962.jpg

    L. methora large ,expanse > 45mm.
    https://indiabiodiversity.org/observ...749975?lang=en
    I have no idea if the image is correct.


    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 11-Jul-2021 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #8
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    Thank you so much sir for this valuable discussion. I have the confidence now to differentiate L. distans from the other two closely similar species. However a view of the upper is much needed for a reliable ID. You must be correct that using of flash on certain species like Lethe and Ypthima loses the actual field colouration. Therefore it seems always mandatory to observe these confusing species on the field itself. I am really building great knowledge each day from this forum. Thank you again.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Saffron; 11-Jul-2021 at 01:15 PM.

  9. #9
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    The Ypthima does look like Y. methora. In the link below you have provided, the UnH looks darker similar to Y. affectata? Perhaps the use of flash may be an issue here?

    https://indiabiodiversity.org/observ...749975?lang=en

    The one I have posted, UnH is looking comparatively lighter than the one in the link. So, if Y. methora has lighter ground colour than Y. affectata, it seems to have qualify this key here?

    Thank you so much for the valuable points.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Saffron; 11-Jul-2021 at 01:16 PM.

  10. #10
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    Evans state of the two species.

    Key line.. 14c (17a).... < 45mm. expanse.
    16a...Male brand absent & discal line visible F & H.(Upperside)
    Below sub-basal fascia obscure.
    a (alpha)...Very dark especially below. DSF strongly marked & variegated.
    Y. affectata.



    17a;;;; > 45mm expanse.
    18a (17).. UnH discal fascia if present angled out opposite end cell.Fascia never so prominent (comparing Y. savara). DSF ocellated.
    18 (19-comparing persimilis.))..UnH double ocelli separated; apical pair separate.
    a (alpha) Large & dark (Upperside)No male brand.
    Y. methora.
    Wsf Y. methora. fig. 20- 21.
    https://archive.org/details/transact...p?view=theater

    The shape of the discal fascia is similar in both species but 2,( dsf ) is not strongly marked & upperside lacks visible fascia.
    2 looks to be correct as Y. methora.


    TL Seow: Cheers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 11-Jul-2021 at 08:41 PM.

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