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Thread: ID help please

  1. #71
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    Aaron, Dr Seow,

    I've been shooting lots of alea-subgroup Arhopala recently and several of them have had much wider fw post-discal bands. This one male which I tracked gave me a glimpse of the upperside, showing the fw border increasing in width towards the apex. The fw termen is also revealed to be evenly curved from the upperside.

    To cut to the chase, I think this is Arhopala selta.



    Last edited by Banded Yeoman; 10-Jul-2019 at 10:16 AM.
    cheers
    Jonathan
    http://nypsbluebottle.blogspot.com/
    --- nothing happens by coincidence - everything is DESTINY ---

  2. #72
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    The border is definitely increasing in width but i'm not sure if this is wide enough for selta. Unfortunately this is a very poorly known group and there's very little information online and i don't have my references with me, so i'll let Dr Seow have a say
    Aaron Soh

  3. #73
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    Agreed it is Arhopala selta..

    You have very clear shots of both surfaces ,so there is no ambiguity.

    Thus it meet all the criteria.
    1. UpF border increases towards the apex.
    2. HW postdiscal spot 6 overlaps the cellend bar by half.
    3. FW termen somewhat rounded.
    Whether the FW postdiscal band is always relatively wide is hard to say.


    Perhaps A. phaenops also occur in Singapore.

    In the thread below, the male have a straight termen , the UpF border appears to be broad at the apex, & HW spot 6 barely overlaps the cellend bar.
    Only the males of selta & phaenops have the UpF border increas at the apex.
    All other males have the FW border a thread throughout.
    http://www.butterflycircle.com/showt...rhopala-for-ID!


    A male labelled as A. sublustris from Cambodia for comparison.
    https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4564...44eda5c2_b.jpg


    TL Seow: Cheers.

  4. #74
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    Arrow

    Aaron, Dr Seow, thanks for confirming that for me.

    I based my judgement on the key and plates from the marvellous Butterflies of Borneo, Vol.2 No.1 Lycaenidae (1991) by Yasuo Seki, Yusuke Takanami and Kazuhisa Otsuka. The male A. selta is a strong match to the one I shot.

    Regarding the suspected A. phaenops that I shot a few years back, I'll leave as A. sublustris . Close examination of the hindwing border (which shows in one of the shots) reveals that it is a thread, only increasing in width below vein 2. This is typical of A. sublustris. In A. phaenops the border will be consistently thicker. There is a chance that the forewing border for my suspected A. phaenops is an illusion due to the odd chip off the wing, casting a shadow.

    I have shot a number of typical A. sublustris and the borders are always a thread, with a bright blue upperside. I may post these later.
    cheers
    Jonathan
    http://nypsbluebottle.blogspot.com/
    --- nothing happens by coincidence - everything is DESTINY ---

  5. #75
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    Aaron, Dr Seow, I'm going through some Hesperiids from my collection and would very much appreciate your opinions on them.

    Here we go: starting with some male Telicota. I have images of a few females but I understand that ID'ing them just by photos will be challenging and never absolute.
    For each Telicota, I am 100% certain that I am presenting dorsal and ventral views of the same individuals.

    1) Telicota colon stinga
    - upF post-discal band continued distad by yellow streaks along the veins. In this individual, they are just shy of the termen
    - un gound colour (from what I saw) ocherous yellow-orange






    2) Telicota linna
    - Stigma in the centre of the black discal fascia
    - upF base of space 2 black with no yellow
    - upH yellow post-discal band barely continued beyond vein 6
    - un ground colour (from what I saw) ocherous yellow





    3) Likely to be Telicota besta bina - images of the stigma will be useful in future comparisons.
    - upF base of space 2 orange
    - upH post-discal band continued beyond vein 6
    - ground colour (from what I saw) no greenish tinge, uniformly - and rather glowing - orange
    The only thing holding me back is the placement of the stigma, which is closer to the inner edge of the black discal fascia. If one follows this feature, it can only be T. besta. Yet, the pure orange colour is quite clear in my memory.




    Last edited by Banded Yeoman; 21-Aug-2019 at 10:37 AM.
    cheers
    Jonathan
    http://nypsbluebottle.blogspot.com/
    --- nothing happens by coincidence - everything is DESTINY ---

  6. #76
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    Unhappy

    Post 75.


    1 is undoubtedly T. colon.
    From the underside this can readily be ID'ed.
    FW spot 4 is shifted farther out from spot 3 & likewise spot 5 is shifted out from spot 4.
    There is little or no overlap between spot 5 & 6.

    2 is also correct for T. linna.Base of space 2 is black & brand is straight.Face & underpart paler.

    3. is Telicota besta. In field shot it often is too orange & confusing.

    T. besta brand closer to inner margin of black space ;UnH veins across band very lightly dark-dusted.
    Face is paler & often whitish.
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6-BjVfqOIQ...male_up_01.jpg
    https://thaibutterflies.com/wp-conte...1-1080x720.jpg
    This one below have upperside confirmation.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NbpYa8XexN...0/DSC_0294.JPG
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n_yvZvnii...0/DSC_0303.JPG

    T. augias ;Uniform deep orange; Brand straight often occupying the full width of the black space.
    UnH veins across band not dark-dusted; Face is orangey.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y3LkExqbZs...ias_male_2.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hp7OPF_eJ6...as-augias).jpg


    Overtime I have realise that the veins in T. augias should not be prominent.

    Those deep orange images with the underside veins bulging & prominent are probably T. besta ,especially so if the face is whitish.
    HOwever, I am still not absolutely certain.


    TL Seow: CHeers.
    Last edited by Psyche; 20-Aug-2019 at 04:59 AM.

  7. #77
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    Now i'm intrigued because i have something like the 3rd one which i thought was augias but now i'm not so sure. Will post soon
    Aaron Soh

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyche View Post
    Post 75.
    3. is Telicota besta. In field shot it often is too orange & confusing.

    T. besta brand closer to inner margin of black space ;UnH veins across band very lightly dark-dusted.
    Face is paler & often whitish.

    T. augias ;Uniform deep orange; Brand straight often occupying the full width of the black space.
    UnH veins across band not dark-dusted; Face is orangey.

    Overtime I have realise that the veins in T. augias should not be prominent.

    Those deep orange images with the underside veins bulging & prominent are probably T. besta ,especially so if the face is whitish.
    HOwever, I am still not absolutely certain.
    Dr Seow, thanks for confirming with me the first 2 identities. They are fairly straightforward and cannot be mistaken if both sides are captured.

    Regarding no. 3, the veins are actually not dark-dusted. It is just the shadows of the veins. I maintain that the colour really was a bright orange in the field and not just in the photograph.

    I've included a cropped image of the other wing's stigma in post 75 to clear any doubts regarding its position and shape. Note that in C&P4, the feature of having the stigma filling the discal black striae is actually for T. hilda and not T. augias. I keep going back to the male that Soon Chye reared, since it has the confirmation of the genitalia. I have yet to find another close shot of a valid T/ augias for comparison. For T. besta, I take Horace's reared individuals as valid, since the features are all shown clearly. I believe Mr Foo has a nice T. augias upperside somewhere and I'm looking for it now.

    I do agree, however, that my male leans towards T. besta and the colour is a problematic variation.

    Telicota augias_male_upperside.jpgTelicota_sp_03_adult_c.jpg
    cheers
    Jonathan
    http://nypsbluebottle.blogspot.com/
    --- nothing happens by coincidence - everything is DESTINY ---

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banded Yeoman View Post
    Dr Seow, thanks for confirming with me the first 2 identities. They are fairly straightforward and cannot be mistaken if both sides are captured.

    Regarding no. 3, the veins are actually not dark-dusted. It is just the shadows of the veins. I maintain that the colour really was a bright orange in the field and not just in the photograph.

    I've included a cropped image of the other wing's stigma in post 75 to clear any doubts regarding its position and shape. Note that in C&P4, the feature of having the stigma filling the discal black striae is actually for T. hilda and not T. augias. I keep going back to the male that Soon Chye reared, since it has the confirmation of the genitalia. I have yet to find another close shot of a valid T/ augias for comparison. For T. besta, I take Horace's reared individuals as valid, since the features are all shown clearly. I believe Mr Foo has a nice T. augias upperside somewhere and I'm looking for it now.
    In C&P4 ' key T. augias is already separated from T. linna, hilda & ohara because the base of space 2 is black.

    Key 7 (12) is only used to separate hilda & linna from T. ohara which has a very narrow brand.

    Take a look at C&P4 plate 59, image 47 T. augias male & image 49 T. hilda male & look at their brand size.

    Horace also show me set specimens of T augias male & female.
    (I kept the images for comparison. The brand is straight & much closer to the outer margin of the black space.)

    Here is another example of a typical male T. augias from Jerantut, Pahang P. Malaysia.
    https://www.neutron.phys.ethz.ch/Lep...AZ11-1495R.jpg
    https://www.neutron.phys.ethz.ch/Lep...AZ11-1495V.jpg

    TL Seow: Cheers.

    PS. Whether you can really see the veins dark -dusted or not is an unreliable feature in T. besta. ( If veins are not visibly dark, it cannot be dismissed.)
    When it is really fresh it appear not dark dusted.
    There are numerous examples.

    T. colon is closely related ,the male with the same brand, & both have females which are greenish tinged UnH but hardly noticeable in field shots.
    The male also present with the UnH veins with dark dustings or none.
    https://thaibutterflies.com/wp-conte...n-1080x675.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JCIq17YMtX...lon+stinga.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iRfNeV5wQz...t-LemonTea.jpg
    Last edited by Psyche; 21-Aug-2019 at 12:46 AM. Reason: PS

  10. #80
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    With regards to dark dusting on the hindwing veins, I would only take it as a serious feature in the freshest of specimens. In too many worn individuals, the dark-dusting turns out to be just evidence of wear. That's another reason why I've only been photographing these fresh individuals.

    Thanks for pulling those images of the Pahang T. augias. Telicota and Potanthus, while possible to identify from clear field shots, showing both sides of pristine individuals, definitely require more rigour in examining them. The fact is that for a long time, many butterfly enthusiasts in Singapore have been content with IDs prescribed with incomplete information (eg. ventral only). I still have a few questions and I'll take these up with you over PM.

    I appreciate that we are making the effort to scrutinise the details and I'm once again grateful to learn from the knowledge shared here.
    I'll leave the ID's as they are in post 75 for now.
    Last edited by Banded Yeoman; 21-Aug-2019 at 01:38 PM.
    cheers
    Jonathan
    http://nypsbluebottle.blogspot.com/
    --- nothing happens by coincidence - everything is DESTINY ---

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