Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 26

Thread: "No spot" one-spot Grass Yellow!

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    5,172

    Default

    A pity Yutaka shows only the female of ssp. phukiwoana.

    From the see-thru broad borders on both wings of the 2 females in your pics. it matches quite well except the margins are more regular.

    I am inclined to believe you have this species, but I can't explain the absence of a cell spot, unless there is a localised aberration in an isolated colony.

    TL Seow

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Cambodia
    Posts
    97

    Default

    I am confused. Spp. phukiwoana is supposedly not the one in this area and spp. novapallida, which is, looks completely different. Also, to my eye, the borders of spp. phukiwoana are quite different from my shots. I wish I had an upperside shot!

    Gee

    My checklist from the South Cardamom foothills, Cambodia.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    5,172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGee View Post
    I am confused. Spp. phukiwoana is supposedly not the one in this area and spp. novapallida, which is, looks completely different. Also, to my eye, the borders of spp. phukiwoana are quite different from my shots. I wish I had an upperside shot!
    I meant your shots are closer to ssp. phukiwoana. In Yutaka's examples the border margins are exaggerated & distorted. Straightened them out & they will be very similar.
    The border margin in ssp. novapallida is very regular & typical. There will be intermediates between these two.

    Of more concern is the cell spot as all examples of E. novapallida also shows a distinct cell spot. It is not one of those faint vague thing like in E. blanda which might be obsolete sometimes.

    If you happens to shoot E. novapallida novapallida in the same area, then chances are this is something new.

    TL Seow

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Cambodia
    Posts
    97

    Default

    I don't know if this helps or hinders but I have a couple of new shots, which could be the same species. I believe their is no forewing cell spot but it is hard to tell with so many "freckles". The first shot shows a clear subapical spot, which I have not seen on the other "no spot" butts. I took this at night and the second shot was taken with a torch shining from the other side to show the upperside black borders.




    Gee

    My checklist from the South Cardamom foothills, Cambodia.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    7,513

    Default

    The yellows are a headache with their spots ...... we had a similar headache sometime back...

    For your reference:

    http://www.butterflycircle.com/forum...t=grass+yellow
    Sunny

    ~~When the Going Gets Tough, the Tough Get Going~~

    Sunny's Facebook on Butterflies!

    ~

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    5,172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGee View Post
    I don't know if this helps or hinders but I have a couple of new shots, which could be the same species. I believe their is no forewing cell spot but it is hard to tell with so many "freckles". The first shot shows a clear subapical spot, which I have not seen on the other "no spot" butts. I took this at night and the second shot was taken with a torch shining from the other side to show the upperside black borders.
    It does help. There is clearly no cell spot.

    Thanks, Sunny for bringing that thread. I did remember it & wanted to go thru it.

    The excavations & inclinations of the black borders are the same for hecabe & lacteola .(also for novapallida although the border is thin.)

    One feature of E. hecabe is its squarish hindwing contour especially in the male.
    You can see from this website one female have only one cellspot and the other brownish one almost none.
    http://yutaka.it-n.jp/pie/20560001.html

    Judging from the hindwing contour of the males (the yellower ones) all are probably variants of E. hecabe.

    TL Seow

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Cambodia
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Sadly, I think you are right and I was coming to that conclusion after looking at Sunny's posted link (thanks for that). I was all excited there, for a couple of days and now just a common grass yellow! Still, I want my list to be as accurate as possible, not just as long as possible, but long and accurate would be nice!

    Sorry for the dumb question but could somebody please explain aberrations to me (if not too much trouble). I had assumed they were rare anomalies but I have seen several of these "no spot" E. hecabe specimens space over several months.

    Also, maybe the identification guidelines need to be modified a bit. The first breakdown is currently based on cell spots but, if they are variable, it makes things a little tricky. Would it be possible to be more vague where variation occurs. For example, it now seems that E. hecabe can have two, one or no cell spots, but probably never three. The trouble is I don't know if anybody actually knows which species display this variability and which do not, leaving it almost impossible to make identifications from photos alone (as stated in the earlier post).

    Gee

    My checklist from the South Cardamom foothills, Cambodia.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    15,615

    Default

    The variability of some of these fellas will cause quite a bit of confusion. But unless someone does a rigourous research by breeding large numbers and examining them, it will be quite difficult to sort out these "no-spot" grass yellows.

    Here are three more to add to your collection of no-spots that I'd classified as E. hecabe aberrants...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Khew SK
    Butterflies of Singapore BLOG
    Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    5,172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGee View Post
    Sadly, I think you are right and I was coming to that conclusion after looking at Sunny's posted link (thanks for that). I was all excited there, for a couple of days and now just a common grass yellow! Still, I want my list to be as accurate as possible, not just as long as possible, but long and accurate would be nice!

    Sorry for the dumb question but could somebody please explain aberrations to me (if not too much trouble). I had assumed they were rare anomalies but I have seen several of these "no spot" E. hecabe specimens space over several months.

    Also, maybe the identification guidelines need to be modified a bit. The first breakdown is currently based on cell spots but, if they are variable, it makes things a little tricky. Would it be possible to be more vague where variation occurs. For example, it now seems that E. hecabe can have two, one or no cell spots, but probably never three. The trouble is I don't know if anybody actually knows which species display this variability and which do not, leaving it almost impossible to make identifications from photos alone (as stated in the earlier post).

    You are right in aberration being a rare anomaly, but the term can be subjective.
    Aberration implied that the said example differs markedly from the norm & is RARE.
    Every species have a clinal variation from one extreme to the other.
    If we only see the 2 extremes & the one in the middle, we might conclude one extreme (& all other forms that differ slightly) as the typical, and the middle & other extreme as aberrations.
    Thats it until we have collected enough examples to show a continuous or graded variation from one to the other.
    Usually aberration refers to very unusual forms eg a patch of different colour, or two black bands across the cell, etc.

    Admittedly the key need to be modified.
    Most of the Eurema species have distinct cell spots (dark, zigzag.) or corroborative subapical patch.
    The 2 species in which the cell spots are mere dots or faint streaks which are liable to be obsolete are hecabe & blanda.
    E. hecabe also do not have alternative ID marks on the underside. However, I think the hindwing contour is quite useful.

    TL Seow
    PS. E. hecabe is stated to be highly variable.
    See C&P4's page 32 on variations & aberrations.

    PS2. Another useful ID feature is that in E. hecabe the costal mark in space 7 is usually quite out of line with the cell-end mark.
    In E. andersonii it is in line (& more or less so in ada,& lacteola )
    Last edited by Psyche; 23-Apr-2012 at 09:24 AM. Reason: PS2

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Cambodia
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Great shots, Khew!

    Seow, sorry to be a bit dim but I am still getting to grips with all the terminology associated with butterfly identification. Is the "squarish hindwing contour" you mention costal, towards the base, as shown clearly in Khew's first shot? And is the spot misalignment as shown below?


    Gee

    My checklist from the South Cardamom foothills, Cambodia.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Join us