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Commander
29-May-2005, 12:57 PM
For those of you who have shot various unknown Nacaduba/Prosotas/Ionolyce/Jamides/Catochrysops species, can you please upload your shots here for comparison? There have been many variations and perhaps even aberrations in some of the species, and I would like to create database of images here to combine all the sightings of various species so that we can help to compare and contrast the markings to narrow down the ID for at least some of them.

E.g. Federick's mystery two 'eyespot' Nacaduba from his 'home' location, and some of the more recent Ubin finds.

Cruiser
29-May-2005, 09:10 PM
here are some of my (9) collections:

Cruiser
29-May-2005, 09:12 PM
last 5 pics...

Rustic
30-May-2005, 02:43 PM
http://freebsd.tspes.tpc.edu.tw/~afu/910_38.htm

UFO@05-28 seem similar to Catopyrops almora. But our UFO's lines are much narrower.

Sky Blue
30-May-2005, 07:39 PM
well done CP! I'd say it's very similar, even the color of the eyes. Hope this will give our master khew some clue ;-)

Commander
30-May-2005, 10:53 PM
Well done! Looks like you've found the needle in the haystack, CP! :cheers: There is one species in C&P4 which is Catopyrops ancyra aberrans. The shot of the underside in Fleming seems to match this species quite closely, but the various shots of the specimens in your Taiwanese link is quite close too.

Interestingly, both Fleming and C&P4 say that this species is rare! We saw at least two that day, and SC has also shot it before. Very interesting find...

Commander
30-May-2005, 11:00 PM
The reason why we could not find a match in C&P4 is because there are no shots of this species' undersides. Fortunately, Fleming has a shot of a male underside, which corresponds to our shots quite closely. The key ID is described as Hindwing spot in space 2 orange crowned. 12/15mm wingspan, and found in M3 (jungle up to 2,500 ft).

Federick, can you post your twin spot UFO shot at BSP on this thread for comparison?

Commander
30-May-2005, 11:05 PM
More shots of this species on the Australian website. Different subspecies though, but the undersides are quite unique in terms of its markings and twin orange crowned tornal spots.

http://www.usyd.edu.au/macleay/larvae/lyca/ancyra.html

Hmm... Ancyra Blue? :thinking:

Sky Blue
30-May-2005, 11:08 PM
I got the upperside shot ;-)

btw what is Fleming ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/kupu-kupu/Ubin/08f04b60.jpg

Peacock Royal
30-May-2005, 11:11 PM
1st shot taken on 21 Dec 2004
2nd shot on 9 Feb 2005.

Commander
30-May-2005, 11:14 PM
Hmm... Federick's shot is another UFO. Quite different and most likely a tailless species. :thinking:

Commander
30-May-2005, 11:21 PM
There's an article in CP's Taiwanese link. Would make some interesting reading if we knew what the article was about... Maybe our specimen here is also the Philippine subspecies instead of the Malaysian one? :thinking:


Lu CC and Hsu YF. 2002. Catopyrops ancyra almora, a lycaenid butterfly new to Taiwan: a case of biological invasion from the Philippines. BioFormosa 37:25-30.

Cruiser
30-May-2005, 11:32 PM
Sky Blue] btw what is Fleming ?

It's a butt bk, see here: http://www.nss.org.sg/butterflysingapore/home/books.htm

Common Rose
30-May-2005, 11:41 PM
btw what is Fleming ?

A thinner book, but more X than C&P4.

Commander
30-May-2005, 11:43 PM
A thinner book, but more X than C&P4.
I have both editions. The first edition comes in two volumes whilst the 2nd edition is combined into one single book. The one in the link is the 2nd edition. The printing and colour for the 1st edition is, however much better.

Up for loan if any of you interested.

Common Rose
30-May-2005, 11:45 PM
There are two copies in TPY library, but one has some missing pages.

Commander
31-May-2005, 12:16 AM
Here's how Fleming's "Butterflies of West Malaysia and Singapore" 1st Editions Vol I and II look like.

Rustic
31-May-2005, 12:45 AM
well done CP! I'd say it's very similar, even the color of the eyes. Hope this will give our master khew some clue ;-)

lucky shots. was tired after lunch, so wondering if we are looking at Nacaduba. then after a long list from the Australian website, found this Taiwanese website. And, it look pretty similar (but not 100%).

Previously, I was comparing against Nacaduba biocellata from Australia. My gut feeling is that we might be looking at yet another invading species given the new plants introduced on the island. :P

Rustic
31-May-2005, 12:49 AM
Hmm... Federick's shot is another UFO. Quite different and most likely a tailless species. :thinking:

Frederick' resemble the Australian Nacaduba biocellata (C. & R. Felder, 1865). Common-name: Double Spotted Line Blue

http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/biocell.html

http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/biocell4.jpg

http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/biocell9.jpg

http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/biocell8.jpg

Rustic
31-May-2005, 12:50 AM
Here's how Fleming's "Butterflies of West Malaysia and Singapore" 1st Editions Vol I and II look like.

oops. so there are 2 volumes? 120SGD is for both or just one volume? :what:
think Sherry is already back from Penang. ... *finger-crossed*

Rustic
31-May-2005, 03:30 AM
There's an article in CP's Taiwanese link. Would make some interesting reading if we knew what the article was about... Maybe our specimen here is also the Philippine subspecies instead of the Malaysian one? :thinking:


Lu CC and Hsu YF. 2002. Catopyrops ancyra almora, a lycaenid butterfly new to Taiwan: a case of biological invasion from the Philippines. BioFormosa 37:25-30.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~EY4Y-TKNM/Prosotas-Phil/Catopyrops-Phil.html

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~EY4Y-TKNM/Prosotas-Phil/ancyra1.jpg
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~EY4Y-TKNM/Prosotas-Phil/ancyra2.jpg

Commander
31-May-2005, 10:05 AM
Ya... the Aussie link that I posted earlier will bring you to the Japanese Jamides website showing the same photos.

Commander
31-May-2005, 10:06 AM
oops. so there are 2 volumes? 120SGD is for both or just one volume? :what:
think Sherry is already back from Penang. ... *finger-crossed*No... 1st edition has 2 volumes (out of print already). The 2nd edition is condensed into 1 book, but the quality of the photos leaves much to be desired. ;P The 2nd edition was updated by Fleming's wife, after he passed away. But the additional plates are either washed out, or the colours rather off.

Sky Blue
29-Nov-2005, 11:19 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/simonsng/09182004%20-%20Sime/nacaduba_9755.jpg

by federick
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/federickho/Lornie%20Trail/NacadubasppLT_Nov05.jpg

Commander
24-Jul-2006, 10:27 PM
Somewhere from the west of Singapore. ;P

Silverstreak
24-Jul-2006, 11:14 PM
somewhere from the centre of Singapore.:)

Peacock Royal
14-Aug-2006, 12:28 AM
Some where in the CCA.

Cigaritis wong
23-Feb-2007, 04:58 PM
From PRP on 100107, observe shiny dark blue/green on upperside, iirc, when in flight lighted by sun.

Cigaritis wong
23-Feb-2007, 05:34 PM
Another one, not sure if it's the same species. But was shot on the same day as above. The upperside description mentioned on my previous post is actually for this one.

horace2264
12-Apr-2007, 12:25 AM
Shot in CCA on 4th April 2007.

Horace

atronox
19-Aug-2007, 01:30 AM
The 2nd of da last 5 shots taken by Ben Jin looks like deudorix elioti.

Sky Blue
19-Aug-2007, 01:45 AM
Another one, not sure if it's the same species. But was shot on the same day as above. The upperside description mentioned on my previous post is actually for this one.wong, for yr post #29, the marking as well as the big black eyes looks similar to the Dark Caerulean (http://www.b-pals.com/butts/spc_photo.php?spc_id=142&img_list_id=316), you may want to double check.

Silverstreak
19-Aug-2007, 01:49 AM
Aaron ,

For your attention ....Please refer here:

http://b-pals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5369

Cigaritis wong
19-Aug-2007, 04:39 AM
wong, for yr post #29, the marking as well as the big black eyes looks similar to the Dark Caerulean (http://www.b-pals.com/butts/spc_photo.php?spc_id=142&img_list_id=316), you may want to double check.

Looks like it but quality too poor to ascertain. Need more onsite survey.

Cigaritis wong
19-Aug-2007, 10:04 AM
Looking at post No.28, I think it looks like Rounded 6-line blue now. And no.29 could be Dark caerulean, another known species. But could the host plant for both exist in PRP mangrove area?, I dunno...

Silverstreak
20-Aug-2007, 12:09 AM
No clue after going thru C&P 4 and the net for 2 hours trying to pin this guy down.

Does not match any in the checklist , closest are as shown.

Khew, over to you....

UFO

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Schir/_MG_8105.jpg


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Schir/ufo1.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Schir/ufo1invert.jpg

Painted Jezebel
21-Aug-2007, 10:26 PM
One more for the file. I think it may be Nacaduba berenice, but not sure.

Sky Blue
19-Apr-2008, 12:38 PM
Another one, not sure if it's the same species. But was shot on the same day as above. The upperside description mentioned on my previous post is actually for this one.Wong, this one (http://b-pals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=47755&postcount=29) should be Jamides bochus nabonassar (Dark Caerulean, 雅灰蝶) (http://www.sgbug.org/butterflies/spc_photo.php?spc_id=142&img_list_id=316) :)

Silverstreak
28-Jul-2008, 06:22 PM
One more from Panti Forest ,Johore..... weird front wing mark near the base ,hindwing markings looks like Jamides pura pura but cannot be sure....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Schir/_MG_5263.jpg

benetay
28-Jul-2008, 06:56 PM
One more new discovery?! :thumbsup:

Cheers!

atronox
28-Jul-2008, 07:23 PM
I think it's a J. pura as it is the only one that has the incomplete bars in the discal area of the hindwing bt the other lines dn't look like the J. pura in C&P4.

Banded Yeoman
24-Oct-2009, 04:34 PM
A grass blue being eaten by a crab spider.:jumjoy:

Psyche
16-Nov-2010, 10:06 PM
Page 1
Pic 1 Female I. helicon. Note forewing postdiscal band staggered in an arc. Hindwing slightly angular. Probably slightly deformed.
pic 2 Male Nacaduba beroe. Note somewhat broad forewing submarginal band with lower inner margin not indented by the veins; large submarginal spot in space 6 on the hindwing; wing base noticeably darkened.

TL Seow

Psyche
16-Nov-2010, 10:43 PM
Page 3

Skyblue
Pic1 N. subperusia lysa female. Note width of space 4 & 5 between postdical band and the submarginal much narrower than either; ocellus ringed with clear orange.
Pic2 N. pactolus male. Note hindwing large triangular marginal spot in space 6 pushing submarginal spot inwards; sharp drop in the inner margin between the submarginal spots in space 5 & 6.
Commander
Pic3 N. pactolus female.
Silverstreak
Pic4. N.subperusia lysa female
Peacock Royal
Pic5 N. pactolus male.
Wong1979
Pic6. Nacaduba kurava male. Note broad band as in N beroe, but inner margin gently scallopped to gently stepped lower down. Large submarginal spot in space 6 on the hindwing. Wingbase not darkened. Female with larger spots ,deeply scallopped inner margin and hindwing large spot ovate. (see Ellen Tan's N. beroe)
Pic7 unknown probably N. berenice.
Horace
Pic8. Nacaduba sanaya female. Note width of space 4 & 5 on hindwing between submarginal and postdiscal bands as wide as either; forewing postdiscal band dislocated at upper end; rounded large marginal spot in space 3 next to ocellus.

TL Seow

Psyche
16-Nov-2010, 11:09 PM
Page 4
Silverstreak

Nacaduba berenice icena
The commonest of the 6-line Blue is also the most variable. In particular the forewing postdiscal band can be dislocated at all points, not seen in the other species. The forewing submarginal band is narrow; the upper three spots are somewhat pyramidal and the lower three narrow rectangles. The hindwing submarginal spots tend to be broad or distorted Vs. Females have marginal spots which bulged in the middle, while males have more level spots.
Note, all females except male at seepage and the Catopyrops.

Painted Jezebel
poor pic, probably N.berenice.

Last pic probably just Jamides celeno.

TL Seow

Great Mormon
16-Nov-2010, 11:21 PM
Thanks for helping us to ID the butterflies! Really great to have you on board with us! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

horace2264
16-Nov-2010, 11:49 PM
Horace
Pic8. Nacaduba sanaya female. Note width of space 4 & 5 on hindwing between submarginal and postdiscal bands as wide as either; forewing postdiscal band dislocated at upper end; rounded large marginal spot in space 3 next to ocellus.


Many thanks for confirming that the 4-Line Blue is indeed Nacaduba sanaya. :cheers:

I had also bred another 4-Line Blue species sometimes back. Attached below are pics of the adults. The first pic shows a female and the 2nd a male. I am still not too sure whether it is a N. superusia or N. sanaya. :thinking:
Your comments on their ID will be very much appreciated. :)

Psyche
16-Nov-2010, 11:56 PM
Thanks for helping us to ID the butterflies! Really great to have you on board with us! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

You're welcome. I forgot to add two things which may have been confusing everyone in the past.

Note

C&P4 Plate 37/35 is Nacaduba kurava male not female.
C&P4 Plate 37/38 is Nacaduba calauria male not female.

TL Seow

Commander
16-Nov-2010, 11:59 PM
This is great, Seow. Now we can at least confirm and re-confirm some of the species that had stumped us.

Ant, can you consolidate the pics (cut and paste) and then put Seow's descriptions with the pics on this thread? That way, we can read the descriptions and see the pics together.

Psyche
17-Nov-2010, 12:13 AM
Many thanks for confirming that the 4-Line Blue is indeed Nacaduba sanaya. :cheers:

I had also bred another 4-Line Blue species sometimes back. Attached below are pics of the adults. The first pic shows a female and the 2nd a male. I am still not too sure whether it is a N. superusia or N. sanaya. :thinking:
Your comments on their ID will be very much appreciated. :)

Horace, you got an interesting pair there. The female at the top is clear- cut N. subperusia. Note the very narrow space between the two adjacent bands. The male at the bottom is another matter. The lower space in space 4 is very wide while the upper space in space 5 is narrower than the postdiscal band to the inside while much wider than the submarginal band. At least in N. sanaya the width of the two spaces are equally wide, while the marginal spot in space 3 looks similar.
This is one of those individual variation that can cause a lot of confusion. It is a good thing that you bred the specimen otherwise we will not be aware of it
TL Seow

horace2264
17-Nov-2010, 12:16 AM
Horace, you got an interesting pair there. The female at the top is clear- cut N. subperusia. Note the very narrow space between the two adjacent bands. The male at the bottom is another matter. The lower space in space 4 is very wide while the upper space in space 5 is narrower than the postdiscal band to the inside while much wider than the submarginal band. At least in N. sanaya the width of the two spaces are equally wide, while the marginal spot in space 3 looks similar.
This is one of those individual variation that can cause a lot of confusion. It is a good thing that you bred the specimen otherwise we will not be aware of it
TL Seow
Great! In that case, I can regard the male as of N. subperusia as well. :gbounce:

Many thanks for the ID assistance. :)

Psyche
17-Nov-2010, 12:19 AM
A correction
The width of the space at space 5 is equal to the submarginal band not ' much wider@.

Great Mormon
17-Nov-2010, 12:34 AM
Page 1
Pic 1 Female I. helicon. Note forewing postdiscal band staggered in an arc. Hindwing slightly angular. Probably slightly deformed.
pic 2 Male Nacaduba beroe. Note somewhat broad forewing submarginal band with lower inner margin not indented by the veins; large submarginal spot in space 6 on the hindwing; wing base noticeably darkened.

TL Seow

Pic 1 Female I. helicon.
15260

pic 2 Male Nacaduba beroe.
15261


Page 3

Skyblue
Pic1 N. subperusia lysa female. Note width of space 4 & 5 between postdical band and the submarginal much narrower than either; ocellus ringed with clear orange.
Pic2 N. pactolus male. Note hindwing large triangular marginal spot in space 6 pushing submarginal spot inwards; sharp drop in the inner margin between the submarginal spots in space 5 & 6.
Commander
Pic3 N. pactolus female.
Silverstreak
Pic4. N.subperusia lysa female
Peacock Royal
Pic5 N. pactolus male.
Wong1979
Pic6. Nacaduba kurava male. Note broad band as in N beroe, but inner margin gently scallopped to gently stepped lower down. Large submarginal spot in space 6 on the hindwing. Wingbase not darkened. Female with larger spots ,deeply scallopped inner margin and hindwing large spot ovate. (see Ellen Tan's N. beroe)
Pic7 unknown probably N. berenice.
Horace
Pic8. Nacaduba sanaya female. Note width of space 4 & 5 on hindwing between submarginal and postdiscal bands as wide as either; forewing postdiscal band dislocated at upper end; rounded large marginal spot in space 3 next to ocellus.

TL Seow

Pic1 N. subperusia lysa female
15262

Pic2 N. pactolus male
15263

Pic3 N. pactolus female.
15264

Pic4. N.subperusia lysa female
15265

Pic5 N. pactolus male.
15266

Pic6. Nacaduba kurava male
15267

Pic7 unknown probably N. berenice.
15268

Pic8. Nacaduba sanaya female.
15269

Great Mormon
17-Nov-2010, 12:39 AM
Continued...


Page 4
Silverstreak

Nacaduba berenice icena
The commonest of the 6-line Blue is also the most variable. In particular the forewing postdiscal band can be dislocated at all points, not seen in the other species. The forewing submarginal band is narrow; the upper three spots are somewhat pyramidal and the lower three narrow rectangles. The hindwing submarginal spots tend to be broad or distorted Vs. Females have marginal spots which bulged in the middle, while males have more level spots.
Note, all females except male at seepage and the Catopyrops.

Painted Jezebel
poor pic, probably N.berenice.

Last pic probably just Jamides celeno.

TL Seow

Silverstreak's Pictures:
15275
15276
15277

Painted Jezebel's Pictures
15279
15278

Last Pic (Sliverstreak)
15280

Silverstreak
17-Nov-2010, 12:49 AM
WoW!!

Many Thanks Seow!!!:cheers:

Psyche
17-Nov-2010, 01:17 AM
AN APOLOGY

Sorry guys ! This is where I need to take humble pie. After checking all the specimens I realised it is not correct for the male of N. subperusia to have the gap so wide. The operative words in the key is that the striae in space 4 & 5 NEARING TOUCHING which is not quite the case here even with the females. More over the postdiscal band is noticeably dislocated near the top end which is not so in N. subperussia.
All those which I have identified as N. subperusia are N. sanaya.

Once more , very sorry guys !!

TL Seow

Peacock Royal
17-Nov-2010, 04:49 PM
Seow, thanks for the id of my shots.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise. Your descriptions of the species are very useful for us to progress to the next level of understanding and learning many of these under-studied lycaenids.

We are very fortunate and honoured to have you here.:cheers:

horace2264
17-Nov-2010, 10:13 PM
AN APOLOGY

Sorry guys ! This is where I need to take humble pie. After checking all the specimens I realised it is not correct for the male of N. subperusia to have the gap so wide. The operative words in the key is that the striae in space 4 & 5 NEARING TOUCHING which is not quite the case here even with the females. More over the postdiscal band is noticeably dislocated near the top end which is not so in N. subperussia.
All those which I have identified as N. subperusia are N. sanaya.

Once more , very sorry guys !!

TL Seow
No problem, Seow. :)

Khew has both male and female specimens of the Four-Line Blue I bred. Hence we can further confirm the ID with the upperside shots of them at a later date (when Khew has the time to process the shots).

Psyche
18-Nov-2010, 01:50 AM
Thankfully, Horace's breeding success means that the extent of variation of N. sanaya is better known. I thought that a new key is in order for N. sanaya to prevent future confusion, and also for N. subperusia in case someone manage to shoot one.

Nacaduba sanaya elioti

Forewing postdiscal band distinctly dislocated at vein 6.
Hindwing submarginal spots in space 4&5 low-domed, and usually the postdiscal band is a band's width from them, but sometimes fairly close. Submarginal spot in space 6 a llttle larger than the spot in space 5. Marginal spot in space 3 rounded.


Nacaduba subperusia lysa

Forewing postdiscal band not or hardly dislocated.
Hindwing submarginal spots in space 4&5 high-domed, the postdiscal band very close, and their white striae almost touch. Submarginal spot in space 6 large and about 2x that of the spot in space 5. Ocellus ringed with distinct orange.

TL Seow
Ciao for now. Off for hol - 2 wks.

Yano
15-Apr-2012, 02:22 AM
The photos were shot yesterday in Singapore. They are of the same individual.
The hindwing orange markings extend to vein 4 and the white spot inside the submerginal black spot in space 3 is almost disappearing. There is a small additional submarginal orange marking along vein 5.
I guess it can still be the Metallic Caerulian but can it be something else?
Yano

Psyche
25-Apr-2012, 12:30 AM
Didn't realised there is a new posting.

The great difficulty is separating J. elpis & alecto.
This is a female so the upperside spots seen are no use for ID.

In J. alecto the pairs of white striae on the lower part of the forewing in space 1b & 2 are equally broad (or roughly so).
In J. elpis the inner pair are noticeably thinner than the outer 2.

Examples of J. alecto & elpis with extended orange had been shot before, but it is more extensive in J. alecto.

TL Seow:cheers:
PS. If the forewings are lowered, a 2nd ID option is:
In J. alecto, the outer of the pair of cellend striae (2nd pair from base in the middle) is as thick as the marginal striae in space 2 & 3 (above the tail).
In J. elpis the outer stria at the cellend is thinner than the marginal striae in space 2 & 3.

Note ID features not absolute, but useful

Yano
30-Apr-2012, 01:00 AM
Dear Seow,
Many thanks for the ID and the comment that "Examples of J. alecto & elpis with extended orange had been shot before".
Today I went to the location again in a hope that I could find some more extended orange butterflies, but coulnd not find any.
Yano