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Glorious Begum
06-Feb-2011, 01:19 PM
Most of the time I skip this genus due to ID problem. There are a few quite similar species in Malaysia.

Correct me if I got the ID wrong.

Allotinus (Paragerydus) leogoron leogoron

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132321409/original.jpg

Psyche
07-Feb-2011, 12:34 PM
Tricky genus, Allotinus. This is actually A. horsfieldi permagnus male.

The common A. unicolor can be distinguished by its smaller size, greyish white ground colour ,and that on the hindwing postdiscal spot 6 is blotchy & lies further inside spot 7.

Notice here the postdiscal series of spots on the forewing is dislocated, & what can be seen are 2 semi-vertical large spots 2 & 3, and three small spots 4, 5, & 6 in a slant. (dislocation at vein 4 ; note twin dark lines are fold-lines in the middle of each space. )

In A. leogoron the dislocation is very marked, with spot 3 shifted well in so that there is a big gap between spot 3 & 4. Also, the width of the space between spot 3 & the termen is at least twice that between spot 2 & the termen.

The ground colour of A. horsfieldi is pale buff; more discernable on the hindwing.That of A. leogoron is greyish white.

Lastly the male of A horsfieldi have five noticeable teeth on the hindwing (note lowermost broken here), while A. leogoron male have only three discernable teeth.

Two other species of similar size and with a dislocated series of postdiscal spots on the forewing, A. strigatus & A. sarrastes can be dismissed by their postdiscal spot 6 on the hindwing being outside of spot 7.

TL Seow:cheers:

Commander
07-Feb-2011, 12:40 PM
Thanks, Seow. This is one genus that would probably yield a few more species on the Singapore front. We can create another thread for the Allotinus spp. to see if we have anything new to re-discover. :)

Glorious Begum
07-Feb-2011, 02:48 PM
Lol ! I got it wrong again.

I must re-check my collection. Will post them for help later.

Thank again Seow. :cheers:

Painted Jezebel
07-Feb-2011, 08:50 PM
LC, please forgive me for hitch-hiking on your thread.

This photo (very poor, but the only one I got) was taken at Endau Rompin last year. I think I have it mis-identified. Could it be the female of A. horsfieldi?

Psyche
08-Feb-2011, 12:10 AM
Well, what you have Les, is the female of A. sarrastes.

Notice the submarginal black & white dots which are only seen in A. strigatus, A. sarrastes & female of A. portunus.

Note the five submarginal black & white dots on the hindwing. They are in space 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Likewise the coresponding postdiscal spots parallel to them can be counted, and it can be seen that postdiscal spot 6 is well outside and away from the next & highest spot 7.

A. strigatus can be elimnated because its spot 6 is midway between spot 5 & spot 7 ,and fairly close to the latter.

A. portunus can be eliminated because the forewing postdiscal series of spots is parallel to the termen through out.
In A. sarrastes the 'band' bend inwards upwards, so that it is farther from the termen at the costa.

A. horsfieldi lacks the distinctive submarginal dots , and its postdiscal spot 6 on the hindwing is more or less under spot 7.

(Addendum: 2 other spps A. fabius & A. borneensis have similar submarginal dots, but hindwing postdiscal spot 6 is under spot 7. A. fabius also have dark blotches.)

TL Seow:cheers:

Painted Jezebel
08-Feb-2011, 07:38 AM
Lol ! I got it wrong again.

LC, you are not alone!:grin2: Thank you Seow, again, you have really surprised me with this one.:thumbsup:

Glorious Begum
08-Feb-2011, 10:23 AM
No problem Les, you and anyone are welcome to post in my thread. :cheers:

Glorious Begum
08-Feb-2011, 03:08 PM
This is all I got, previously I had IDed them all as A. leogoron. :embrass: Hope I got one correct out of below 5. ;P

unknown #1

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/85868938.jpg

unknown #2

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/82261254.jpg

unknown #3

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/83545485.jpg

unknown #4

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/81849037.jpg

unknown #5

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/84823774.jpg

Psyche
09-Feb-2011, 12:23 AM
No 1 A. corbeti male ( correction : this is actually A. horsfieldi)
Small species. Underside similar to A. leogoron or A. horsfieldi. Ground colour greyish white. Hindwing postdiscal spot 6 under spot 7. Forewing postdiscal spot 3 slanted almost at right angle to spot 4. Spot 2 often in parallel to spot 3.
( Some doubt here. Is this butterfly big ? )

No 2 A. unicolor unicolor male.
Note hindwing large postdiscal spot 6 situated well inside spot 7. Forewing postdiscal band various, but often irregularly arced.

No 3 A. fallax apus female.( correction : this is actually A. horsfieldi)
Related A. subviolaceus similar but ground colour brownish , postdiscal band broken, & teeth much smaller.

No 4. A. substrigosus substrigosus male.
Note brownish shading & white streak at forewing apex. A. davidis very similar, but ground pale buff & without marginal shading. Confusingly C&P4 state discal spot in space 7 on the hindwing not blackened.

No 5 A. unicolor unicolor female.
Very tricky this one. Part of wings scraped & hindwing postdiscal spot 6 & 7 not easily discernable. Careful comparision helped. Female of A. apries is very similar but its hindwing is hardly toothed.

TL Seow:cheers:

Glorious Begum
09-Feb-2011, 12:10 PM
A very Big Thank to you, Seow. :cheers:

I got them all wrong again :embrass:

For the #1, I can't recall how big. Apology.

Psyche
09-Feb-2011, 03:46 PM
For the #1, I can't recall how big. Apology.


I thought the butterfly looks largish, but cross-checking ( with the five teeth on the hindwing ) indicates the next closest match is A. horsfieldi, which have a pale buff ground colour ( compare your post 1 pic ). I am reasonably certain the ID should be correct.

TL Seow:cheers:

Glorious Begum
10-Feb-2011, 10:49 AM
Thanks Seow. :cheers:


I thought the butterfly looks largish, but cross-checking ( with the five teeth on the hindwing ) indicates the next closest match is A. horsfieldi, which have a pale buff ground colour ( compare your post 1 pic ). I am reasonably certain the ID should be correct.

TL Seow:cheers:

Glorious Begum
13-Feb-2011, 07:46 PM
Found a few more in my UFO library. Tried to ID them and please help to correct it again. Many thanks

#6 : Allotinus corbeti ?

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487847.jpg

#7 : totally not sure

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487846.jpg


#8 : Another Allotinus corbeti ?

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487845.jpg


#9 : Allotinus corbeti ?

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487844.jpg


#10 : Allotinus horsfieldi permagnus ?

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487843.jpg


#11 : Allotinus portunus maitus

http://www.pbase.com/lcgoh/image/132487842.jpg

Psyche
13-Feb-2011, 10:53 PM
Well, what a revelation your new series of pics shows. Now I know where I have gone wrong.

One of the earlier problem was the size of the butt. A. corbeti is very small with typical small butt look ie rounded forewings, & wing proportion. The male also have not very prominent teeth on the hindwing.

The revised IDs are:

No1 (correction) A. horsfieldi male.

No 3 ( correction) A. horsfieldi female. ( earlier ID was based on elimination & comparison with phillipine form. Located true pic of local race apus of A. fallax)

No 6 A. horsfieldi female.

No 7 A. unicolor female. note hindwing postdiscal spot 6 inside postdiscal spot 7.

No 8 A. horsfieldi male.

No 9 A. horsfieldi female. note how postdiscal spots tends to join. Thus No 3 is similar.

No 10 A. horsfieldi male.

No 11 A. apries female. most postdiscal spots missing, but no black & white submarginal spots & hindwing entire.(Correction : this should be A. unicolor)

TL Seow:cheers:

Peacock Royal
13-Feb-2011, 11:18 PM
I think I will my shots here as well for easy reference.

Seow, two shots taken at Kuala Woh Jungle Park, Perak.
Sorry to make you work on the ids.

Psyche
14-Feb-2011, 01:05 AM
I think I will my shots here as well for easy reference.

Seow, two shots taken at Kuala Woh Jungle Park, Perak.
Sorry to make you work on the ids.

Not a problem, Federick. The more variations I see the easier becomes the identification.

Your pic 1 is a female A. unicolor. Again note hindwing postdiscal spot 6 lies to the inside of postdiscal spot 7.

Your pic 2 is a male A. leogoron. Note the position of the 2 lowest postdiscal spots on the forewing i.e. spot 2 & 3. The higher spot 3 is twice further in from the wing margin(termen) than the lower spot 2. Also note the narrower forewing and the lesser number of teeth seen on the hindwing(almost insignificant) compared to A. horsfieldi.

TL Seow:cheers:

Glorious Begum
14-Feb-2011, 10:20 AM
Thanks Seow. :cheers:

One question, how do you tell it is a male or female, is it from the abdomen which the long abdomen is male and short is female ?

Painted Jezebel
14-Feb-2011, 11:03 AM
As far as I am aware. I have only found A. unicolor on Samui. However, here are two photos which seem to suggest that I may have come across a second at some time. One shows hindwing teeth, the other does not appear to do so, but that could just be my rubbish photography!

The first was taken 4 years ago, when I first arrived on Samui, and had only just started photographing butts, it is very poor indeed. The second was taken yesterday.

Psyche
14-Feb-2011, 11:38 AM
Thanks Seow. :cheers:

One question, how do you tell it is a male or female, is it from the abdomen which the long abdomen is male and short is female ?

You got it right. The male claspers sticks out. Also the female have rounder forewings, and the hindwing tends to be flattened at the top and bottom, giving it a broad and 'squat' look.

It is important to ID the sex, since the disposition of the spots can be different. The description for the leogoron male will not fit the female. The female leogoron can be differentiated from the horsfieldi female by its narrow, more needle-like teeth. Note also leogoron is rare while horsfieldi is common.

TL Seow:cheers:

Psyche
14-Feb-2011, 12:06 PM
As far as I am aware. I have only found A. unicolor on Samui. However, here are two photos which seem to suggest that I may have come across a second at some time. One shows hindwing teeth, the other does not appear to do so, but that could just be my rubbish photography!

The first was taken 4 years ago, when I first arrived on Samui, and had only just started photographing butts, it is very poor indeed. The second was taken yesterday.

The first is easy enough. Notice the two hindwing postdiscal spots 6 & 7 are streak-like, and spot 6 lies well inside spot 7, as in unicolor. The hindwing margin is entire. Thus it is A. apries male.

The 2nd is much more interesting. Most of the postdiscal spots on the hindwing not discernable. noticeable teeth on the hindwing. To cut everything short, only 3 spp. need be considered, A. unicolor, A. horsfieldi & A. leogoron.

Against horsfieldi, very greyish white ground colour. Perhaps also the forewing postdiscal band.

Against leogoron, teeth rather broad. Again the postdiscal spots on the forewing.

For A. unicolor, whitish ground colour, teeth, & the forewing postdiscal spots in an arc.

( Addendum : against A. corbeti, size )

Most likely ID. A. unicolor female. Allotinus is noted to be very variable.

TL Seow:cheers:

Painted Jezebel
14-Feb-2011, 03:23 PM
Thank you, Seow. I must admit to not considering A. apries, as it has not been recorded from Thailand before, as far as I am aware!

Psyche
15-Feb-2011, 12:48 AM
Thank you, Seow. I must admit to not considering A. apries, as it has not been recorded from Thailand before, as far as I am aware!

I did not realised that A. apries was not recorded in Thailand, as I could not see any tooth on the hindwing in your pic 1.(Poor observation here.)

Checking with Fleming L42 pic, & the Borneo and Palawan races, postdiscal spot 6 on the hindwing do lies inside of spot 7.

The thing not quite matching was that the postdiscal spots on the forewing should be parallel to the termen, although there is some variation.

However, closely checking the margins of the hindwings of males of several species, I realised much of the teeth actually lies in the ciliated margin and may be abraded in some worn specimens. A. unicolor is particularly vulnerable, as in both sexes the teeth are shallow and set in the outer margin only.
Here is where I failed to be observant, presuming the membraneous portion to be the natural margin of the hindwing, in your pic.

Now it becomes obvious that this is merely a worn specimen of A. unicolor that has lost all the teeth. ( Actually some teeth are noticeable at the tornal part of the hindwing. )

LC, it looks like another correction is in order. Your No. 11 is likely to be an A. unicolor female that has lost the teeth on the hindwing, as its forewing postdiscal spots are also not parallel to the termen.

Les, A big thank you here. Now I know another one of the pitfalls in IDing Allotinus.

TL Seow:cheers:

Painted Jezebel
15-Feb-2011, 09:22 AM
Thanks, Seow. Ah well, back to a single Allotinus species on Samui, A. unicolor. Nevertheless, it has been useful to revisit a set of photos I had not checked for several years, and found a A. sarrastes lurking hidden in another file, even if it was a photo from Endau Rompin. Thank you, LC, for starting this thread on a somewhat neglected Genus, it has been VERY educational.

Glorious Begum
15-Feb-2011, 08:54 PM
LC, it looks like another correction is in order. Your No. 11 is likely to be an A. unicolor female that has lost the teeth on the hindwing, as its forewing postdiscal spots are also not parallel to the termen.

TL Seow:cheers:

Thanks Seow :cheers: